Are there any plans for a Silverblue remix program, similar to the existing Fedora Remix program (Remix - Fedora Project Wiki)?
Doesnât Silverblue already include random non-free software, by its very
nature?
Itâs no more non-free than Fedora itself. Really, maybe the pieces I want - the release production / ISO builder infrastructure - are already there and I just need to do a little research. Iâm thinking of something like ArcoLinux where you have a bunch of scripts to make ISOs.
In a way (for now the only way). You can create your own rpm-ostree image. For non-desktop and ease of use, you can use GitHub - coreos/coreos-assembler: Tooling container to assemble CoreOS-like systems. For instructions on how to do it without the CoreOS assembler, hereâs a slightly older post from the Project Atomic blog Composing custom OSTree update for Fedora 27 Atomic Host â Project Atomic, some information in the original OSTree docs: https://ostree.readthedocs.io/en/latest/manual/buildsystem-and-repos/, and @dustymabeâs blog on it as well: How Do We Create OSTree Repos and Artifacts in Fedora - A Random Walk Down Tech Street
Doesnât Silverblue already include random non-free software, by its very
nature?
What? Why do you think that? That will never happen as long as I work on the project at least.
Proprietary flatpacks, containers, etc since Silverblue isnât a real
distribution, but really a collection of tools to pull in other stuff.
By this logic, all distros are non-free because they let you run any programs you want, including proprietary applications. An operating system is fundamentally something you use to run applications, proprietary or not l.
Sure, but traditional distros are not designed to pull in random containers
and flatpacks.
Flatpaks it uses are about just as random as the package repos; itâs still on a moderated and curated service (Flathub), so itâs definitely not ârandomâ. Of course, a large amount of the software there is still FOSS (proprietary software is tagged as such). Most containers are built on free software and are pretty decidedly not ârandomâ, either.
In addition, GNOME Software on Workstation asks if you want to enable proprietary repo sources. Iâm not complaining (IMO itâs perfectly fine), but thatâs arguably closer to âinclude random non-free softwareâ than Flathub is.
In addition, the stark majority of Fedora users will end up with rpmfusion non-free enabled, if not just for NVIDIA and ffmpeg.
Also, Silverblue is definitely a real distribution., Every distro is inevitably a collection of tools to pull in other stuff, and Silverblue still even supports rpms via rpm-ostree.
Flatpaks it uses are about just as random as the package repos; itâs still
on a moderated and curated service (Flathub), so itâs definitely not
ârandomâ. Of course, a large amount of the software there is still FOSS
(proprietary software is tagged as such). Most containers are built on free
software and are pretty decidedly not ârandomâ, either.
Flathub contains proprietary software such as Skype.
In addition, GNOME Software on Workstation [asks if you want to enable
proprietary repo
sources](Reddit - Dive into anything
its_policy_about_free_software/). Iâm not complaining (IMO itâs perfectly
fine), but thatâs arguably closer to âinclude random non-free softwareâ
than Flathub is.In addition, the stark majority of Fedora users will end up with rpmfusion
non-free enabled, if not just for NVIDIA and ffmpeg.
I noticed that as well, and I certainly complained about that being enabled as
well. That said, I doubt most users will use it, and I doubt that âthe stark
majority of Fedora usersâ are even using GNOME.
Also, Silverblue is definitely a real distribution., Every distro is
inevitably a collection of tools to pull in other stuff, and Silverblue
still even supports rpms via rpm-ostree.
Naturally, I never meant to say that it isnât a ârealâ distribution, but that
itâs not a traditional distribution.
Proprietary flatpacks, containers, etc since Silverblue isnât a real
distribution, but really a collection of tools to pull in other stuff.
Thatâs a gross mis-characterization of the project. It is fully backed by the Fedora council, uses the same RPMs as found in Fedora, does not ship any proprietary software, and is subject to the same guidelines as any other Fedora project.
The statement ââŚreally a collection of tools to pull in other stuffâ could be applied to any distribution available; rpm
, apt
, emerge
are all tools that are used to âpull in other stuffâ.
Just because you are able to use Flatpaks or containers to install/run proprietary software on the host is not an indictment of the entire process. You are able to do the same with yum
or dnf
; just find a repo where someone maintains the proprietary software and go get it.
Itâs ultimately the choice of the person using any distribution. Silverblue does not encourage, promote, or require users to download and use proprietary software. This kind of FUD does nothing to help grow the project or community and appears to only poison the well.
The statement ââŚreally a collection of tools to pull in other stuffâ could
be applied to any distribution available;rpm
,apt
,emerge
are all
tools that are used to âpull in other stuffâ.
That would be true if they used a source which provided proprietary software
by default. Technically, it is true of Fedora proper, as it includes
proprietary firmware.
Just because you are able to use Flatpaks or containers to install/run
proprietary software on the host is not an indictment of the entire
process. You are able to do the same withyum
ordnf
; just find a repo
where someone maintains the proprietary software and go get it.
Thereâs an extra step there which is not necessary here.
Itâs ultimately the choice of the person using any distribution. Silverblue
does not encourage, promote, or require users to download and use
proprietary software. This kind of FUD does nothing to help grow the
project or community and appears to only poison the well.
This really ignores the purpose of Remixes, of course⌠Anything which is Free
Software can be packaged in Fedora proper, so one would never need to create a
Remix in order to add more Free Software. You would, however, need a Remix to
add non-free software.
I admittedly did not know the definition of a Fedora Remix and I now understand that Remixes can include non-free software.
However, my original comment was directed at your characterization that Silverblue is either designed to use non-free software, includes it by default, or otherwise encourages the use of non-free software. Itâs just Fedora RPMs delivered in a different way.
The same tools that exist in Silverblue (flatpak
, podman
, ostree
, etc) exist in Fedora Workstation and other popular distributions. If you imply that Silverblue is at fault for allowing users to use non-free software, then the same fault can be levied against the other distributions that provide the same tools.
However, my original comment was directed at your characterization that
Silverblue is either designed to use non-free software, includes it by
default, or otherwise encourages the use of non-free software. Itâs just
Fedora RPMs delivered in a different way.
This is not true, many of the packages available through flathub, while they
are available as RPMs, are not available in Fedora, as they are non-free. Many
are not available as RPMs at all.
The same tools that exist in Silverblue (
flatpak
,podman
,ostree
, etc)
exist in Fedora Workstation and other popular distributions. If you imply
that Silverblue is at fault for allowing users to use non-free software,
then the same fault can be levied against the other distributions that
provide the same tools.
Fedora Workstation is a Spin (or whatever the proper term for promoted spins
is, Iâm sorry to say Iâve forgotten) of the distribution known as Fedora.
While these tools may be available in Fedora, they are not the primary tools
to install package, that would be dnf
or frontends to the package manger
itself.
Agreed, but Silverblue doesnât require you to use any of them. Itâs a choice of the user.
Workstation is not a spin; it is a product of the Fedora project. See the first line of the Workstation wiki page.
Spins are, quoting Fedora Spins | The Fedora Project
What are Spins?
The default desktop environment of Fedora is GNOME, but if you prefer an alternative desktop environment such as KDE Plasma Desktop or Xfce, you can download a spin for your preferred desktop environment and use that to install Fedora, pre-configured for the desktop environment of your choice.
I agree that flatpak
and other container tools are not the primary tools for installing packages, but even when using dnf
(on Workstation) or rpm-ostree install
(on Silverblue), it is still possible to install non-free software with them.
I view Silverblue as the equivalent of Workstation; it uses many of the same RPMs but is delivered in a different format. Perhaps we are talking past each other or getting lost in the details, but I donât see a fundamental difference (in terms of requiring non-free software) between the two experiences.
Workstation is not a spin; it is a product of the Fedora project. See the
first line of the Workstation wiki
page.
Theyâre all âproductsâ. I had to dig up the thread from the -devel list, the
official name for Workstation and the like is âEditionâ, an artificial
difference between Spins that Fedora wants to promote and those it does not.
I agree that
flatpak
and other container tools are not the primary tools
for installing packages, but even when usingdnf
(on Workstation) or
rpm-ostree install
(on Silverblue), it is still possible to install
non-free software with them.
Not by default, other than firmware, you would have to go and find a non-free
repository and then enable it by putting a file in /etc/yum.repos.d/
.
That would be true if they used a source which provided proprietary software
by default.
That would have been relevant if Flatpak used Flathub by default. It doesnât though, and youâre free not to add Flathub just as youâre free not to add RPMFusion.
Edit: grammar
You ask all the right questions!