Project Fedora - Sustainibility and Ecology

Okay then let’s do it! :slight_smile: This is a good way.

I fully agree to your idea and this is for all sides a win-win situation. IMO starting this and growing up this slowly we may be forward as Fedora usual in this topic :)!!

Probably, after 2-3 meetings we can discuss, if we can give a talk on Fedora Nest about this topic? Thoughts? @jflory7 @josephdg

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Andi

Some complementary questions that might be considered before implementing something:

How / when will users end up at these Docs pages? → Which way will lead them to these pages? → What questions of users are these pages to answer? :disguised_face:

Docs cannot have an impact if no one seeks and thus, finds them :smiley: → if users seek that type of Docs, it has to be provided in a way in which they find it only with the information that is available to them in advance (so the information they have already when asking the question) → and they start to ask and formulate questions when they have a problem that has to be solved (and they formulate questions based upon the experience they already have / “the world they already know”) :upside_down_face:

There have been put a lot of efforts in Docs on the Internet that no one is using and that have no impact, because they don’t solve immediate problems, because they solve problems that are only considered by those who already know that answer, or because the questions that users ask do not end up at these Docs since finding the content needs the experience of/around the content in advance.

A lot of questions in ask.fp could be answered by Docs, but users do not end up there. Therefore, before implementing something, my suggestion is to identify the target group, its knowledge/experience and problems, and then the questions they ask based upon their experience (and where they ask them) → then put your Docs in place.

I hope this makes somewhat sense.

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These have to be discussed in further meetings.
In General I support the idea of having Quick Doc or Docs as a starting point.

We won’t start up a Doc without having further background. It will be a good source for all users, especially for the community to deal with it.
But there are other questions to be discussed as well.

Ask Fedora isn’t a place for this topic IMHO.

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Andi

Of course it is not the place for that. It was just an example of cases where problems could be solved by Docs while users do not find them, ending up somewhere else, so that the Docs cannot fulfill their purpose.

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Yea I get your point mate :slight_smile: hehe
All fine!

Therefore first things first to do :slight_smile: aka Road map etc.

Yeh

Communicating means transmitting a message for others to understand and not simply being satisfied by sending content to third parties!

That’s why I thought it was interesting to quote @duffy , as she is redesigning the website and can contribute her ideas. Just like I suggested calls in the case of privacy issues, also issues of sustainibility and ecology is cool.

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I’m not sure if I got the relation to my original argument, but a message needs a medium, and if the medium does not make it to the receiver, the message will not be transmitted :wink:

My point was that unlike an email that is send directly to the target group, Docs are put in place away from the user: the user has to find the way to the Docs himself/herself.

As I see already elaboration of the message and where to place it, before an evaluation of the target group takes place, I just want to make aware and help to avoid that it ends up in efforts and a Quick Docs page that remains unseen and soon unmaintained because of serving a group that already has the message in advance or that does not search in a way that is likely to end up at the Quick Docs pages.

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Hi Christopher,

Yesterday I was discussing with a friend about agile methodologies (visual law) and privacy policies, when he argued this observation. And I also found it applicable to the case, let me explain…

“Communicating means conveying a message for others to understand”

It means that the process of conveying the message must be clear, simple and objective. People don’t pay attention to things that are too complex.

And at that we are good! (KISS - Keep It Simple)

“(…) don’t just be content to send content to third parties!”

It means exactly your point of view, that it is not enough to have such content retained here, or an email that is sent directly to the target group.

A better way to make it easier for the user to find the message should be studied. That is, “the user has to find the path to the documents on his own”.

I thought the idea of ​​the Quick Docs page was cool, but it’s not enough to have it here, you have to make it visible/accessible.

That’s why I suggested calls on the homepage.

I was also thinking yesterday about a popup it would be interesting.

:left_speech_bubble: “What’s new in Fedora?!”

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@carvalhoalexsander ah, ok. Now I got your point :wink:

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Thx again @py0xc3 @josephdg for our first meeting we had today. A lot of interesting topics and thoughts we have discussed.

For the folks who have missed this meeting - don’t be sad! Just stay tuned :)!

We are going to plan another meeting and publish it here. You will be able to read the protocol as well asap.

Nevertheless, I hope we are going to have an ongoing discussion. Personally, I invite and encourage all Fedorians to participate on it :slight_smile:

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Andi

Hi, wow, great to find this conversation! Reading through the posts, I find much concern on power consumption and on CPU usage (e.g. in the encryption case). These I consider highly relevant. I like to add two more environmental concerns.

  • Amount of data Software that generates more and more data, larger files, and provides incentives for the user to generate more data means that storage needs are further increasing. Compression algorithms in relation to hardware and energy implications of storage need to be assessed.
  • Screentime/Systemtime: The longer the machines are on, the more power they use. The longer the machines are used, the more dependent might users become, in turn using the machines more. How can Fedora give incentives for users to reflexively direct their system’s powered-on time?

I wonder whether we can think of Fedora as a community that provides a distribution that does not set the “wrong” incentives here; might we/Fedora develop a document which provides orientation to developers who are concerned about environmental issues?

On concepts: The discussion here is deeply concerned with environmental issues. Great. But, as many of you are likely aware, the notion of sustainability is so far wider. I think it makes much sense to not try to cover all kinds of aspects that are otherwise linked to the notion of sustainability (consider the SDGs, e.g. poverty, gender, etc - great important themes!!!).

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Hi @ingli
Thx for diving into the discussion and welcome!!! :slight_smile:

The 2 points you figured out are straight to the point.
Screentime/Systemtime - How can Fedora e better and save energy consumption? Here we have to talk with GNOME devs, KDE devs etc.
This topic should tear down all walls of narrow-minded thinking in FOSS/OSS!

Here this is a point to be discussed and kept in mind! :slight_smile: Absolutly important.

I agree that sustainibilty is war big field and we don’t have to loose into small topics. The main goal should be how to provide apps, measurements etc. which supports the aim of sustainibilty and saving the planet. Thinking of BE4F0SS or Umweltcampus Birkenfeld with their app.

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Andi

Thank you @andilinux,

just to briefly (re)introduce myself in this conversation – as my feeling is that here I could actually contribute to conversations: I am sociologist with a research agenda that explore a society that seeks to be both, sustainable and digital, and the troubles, frictions and contradictions of that. My primary research is qualitatively, if not even philosophically, oriented. Empirically, I draw on observations of carbon accounting :wink:

I missed the meeting today, as I just stumbled upon this discussion in the CEST afternoon. But, well, maybe connect another time.

You’re welcome @ingli

Thx for linking your self-intro here :slight_smile: I am pretty sure that you’re going to boost up our discussion and interest group.

Don’t be sad that u have missed the meeting. We’re planning to have a meeting End of July. Probably, we’re going to do a Doodle to check the best shedule for all interestes.

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I was not warned about access to the meeting :disappointed_relieved:

Great elaboration! Besides compression and cryptographic algorithms, it is also checksum algorithms, and algorithms that are used to distribute data (and how they are deployed).

Concerning data amounts, the issue can be further split in data storage and data transfer. E.g., Apache Cassandra aims to decrease the traffic of a distributed database at the expensive of increased storage use, because in its intended use cases, traffic is assumed to be more expensive than storage. The user needs to know a key in advance (e.g., the name of the person whose address we need) with which it can be determined in advance on which machine the data is stored (avoiding a search for the data on all machines, reducing traffic), Indeed, my guess would be that the repeated transfer of data over the Internet is in many cases more energy-consumptive than storing it multiple times (assuming a positive correlation of costs and power-consumption; although other factors such as practically availability-of-bandwidth, which is not equal to the exact need of competition, could break correlations). However, this is a guess and needs further evaluation.

→ we had a related discussion about streaming today in the meeting, from which another question may be derived: would Netflix (just as an example) save money if more data remains stored on user machines, to avoid the same data to be transferred again and again? E.g., using compression algorithms with dictionaries of repeating data (when a movie is very “dark”, large amounts of pictures may be summed to one identifier in the dictionary). However, this had to be compared against the computational power of using the dictionary.

My last issue about BTRFS’ algorithm is maybe another example supporting Ingli’s point:

Great point! We have finally arrived in socio-technical realms :slight_smile:

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Oh I am really sry that you have missed the meeting. But as I wrote in the previous chats.
We are going to have definitely a further meeting end of July :slight_smile: !

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and just to ensure people in the conversation here have not noted this already, socio-technical realms are of interest to the social scientists in their conversation on this very platform :wink: - just to offer a link from here to over there…

@ingli thx for sharing the link

Hey folks! Hi @josephdg

Thx for your awesome talk!

I am going to share your link to the slides:

Get in touch with us and let us continue to share and to discuss our ideas for our future planet!

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Andi/andilinux