In which we discuss the opt-in/opt-out telemetry straw poll

[trailingslash]

@ittechnodrone

It runs Kodi for a TV in every room.

Is it Kodi flatpak? Sorry for offtopic.

[ittechnodrone (NB)]

@trailingslash

Is it Kodi flatpak? Sorry for offtopic.

There is actually a mixture because at one point the version of Kodi in the Fedora repos had big issues with some of my addons. So some are flatpaks and some are from the repos. I’ve got Kodi tied into my NAS, NetFlix, Amazon, Youtube, and a couple of other paid services. All in one consistent interface and we use Kore on our phones for the remote. I can control everyone’s TV from my phone from the same interface.

[mattdm (Matthew Miller)]

@ittechnodrone

Wouldn’t that be what a large portion of participators in this discussion would be? That has seemed to be a consensus in the discussion, even indicated by the proponents. I guess you could argue a bunch are just choosing to stay out of it. Doesn’t seem likely though.

I am not sure if you saw this, but this is the first time we’ve had change proposal discussion here. Previously, it was all on the devel list. So, we’re seeing a lot of new names, and a lot of new people not familiar with the Changes process. That’s generally good — I want more transparency and more people participating. But it’s an unusual situation. Compounding that, there are many old-school users who haven’t been convinced that Discourse is valuable, and I’m pretty sure some of them are looking at the overwhelming thread and aren’t exactly encouraged. So, again, unusual.

I don’t think that there’s, like, a bunch of fake new users or anything like that — but I do think there’s an influx of new forum members who are particularity energized by this issue, whether they’re new to Fedora or have been quietly around forever. And, don’t get me wrong — that’s good too. Energy is great! Privacy is incredibly important. But, I hope the interest lasts beyond internet drama into actually building things. That’s always the hard part.

[ittechnodrone (NB)]

@mattdm

I don’t think that there’s, like, a bunch of fake new users or anything like that — but I do think there’s an influx of new forum members

I haven’t participated much in the past forums. More just bug reports and trying to make sure things are running well. You wouldn’t recognize me though. I tend to use all kinds of different names, don’t use my actual names, use lot’s of different emails. You don’t generally know me unless I want you to know me. I don’t give out real info unless I want you to know me. My wife laughs because I put fake email on all kinds of things, like bsmith@nowhere.com. Because I don’t need restaurants and departments stores emailing me. If I want you to have my email I will give it to you, if you just want it, or “require” it you probably won’t get it.

Though I do recognize there is lot’s of data about me out there. I can’t stop it all. It doesn’t help that my wife and kids like to use the mics on their phones, so Google got all kinds of recordings of me I’m sure.

[ittechnodrone (NB)]

@mattdm

I don’t think that there’s, like, a bunch of fake new users or anything like that — but I do think there’s an influx of new forum members who are particularity energized by this issue, whether they’re new to Fedora or have been quietly around forever. And, don’t get me wrong — that’s good too. Energy is great! Privacy is incredibly important. But, I hope the interest lasts beyond internet drama into actually building things. That’s always the hard part.

My interest is pretty much gone at this point. I’m not really comfortable continuing using a system whose developer community is this open to this type of behavior. I’m very disappointed that Fedora has let me down, but it is what it is. I just migrated the first of my many machines to Debian. No opt-out anythings, Firefox’s telemetry is off by default, popularity contest wasn’t even installed. Nice, quiet and respectful.

[ilikelinux]

@ittechnodrone

I’m very disappointed that Fedora has let me down, but it is what it is. I just migrated the first of my many machines to Debian. No opt-out anythings, Firefox’s telemetry is off by default, popularity contest wasn’t even installed. Nice, quiet and respectful.

Amen!
(That’s how it should be)

[trailingslash]

@ittechnodrone

I’m very disappointed that Fedora has let me down, but it is what it is. I just migrated the first of my many machines to Debian. No opt-out anythings, Firefox’s telemetry is off by default, popularity contest wasn’t even installed. Nice, quiet and respectful.

I am curious what Debian did you choose? Stable, Beta or maybe Sid?

[ittechnodrone (NB)]

@trailingslash

I am curious what Debian did you choose? Stable, Beta or maybe Sid?

Stable. I no longer have the time to fight with bugs and such more than absolutely necessary. Most of my time is work and family. I also chose MATE, Gnome 2 was great, simple and functional. Gnome 3 is a steaming pile of decomposing garbage. I would literally use almost any DE before Gnome 3. You might say than why do I care about this? Because 1: it’s a system wide telemetry proposal and 2: you can’t honestly believe this type of behavior would stop here.

[threehundred]

@mattdm

…first time we’ve had change proposal discussion here. Previously, it was all on the devel list. So, we’re seeing a lot of new names, and a lot of new people not familiar with the Changes process…

Just to validate your insight: This describes me. I came here as a relatively new Fedora user to follow the “Ask” issues and learn about using the distro, and I’ve been fascinated by seeing the development and governance threads now in the same place, to which I otherwise wouldn’t have had any exposure. I haven’t said much because I “know my place,” but I did vote in the straw poll.

[ittechnodrone (NB)]

@threehundred

Just to validate your insight: This describes me. I came here as a relatively new Fedora user to follow the “Ask” issues and learn about using the distro, and I’ve been fascinated by seeing the development and governance threads now in the same place, to which I otherwise wouldn’t have had any exposure. I haven’t said much because I “know my place,” but I did vote in the straw pol

As a Fedora user I think your place is to say what you think. I don’t think being quiet is your place. You are one of the primary targets of the telemetry being proposed! Speak!

[mattdm (Matthew Miller)]

@ittechnodrone

As a Fedora user I think your place is to say what you think. I don’t think being quiet is your place. You are one of the primary targets of the telemetry being proposed! Speak!

Yeah, I completely agree with this!

[threehundred]

I appreciate the encouragement then. “Know my place” was the wrong phrase; too much negative connotation. I was trying to express something about having self-awareness that I’m not yet familiar with the process, as Matt said, nor the internal project and community history that led to this all this, not a developer who keeps this thing running, etc.

[ittechnodrone (NB)]

This is just a discussion. No decisions are being made or officially voted on here. If you have an opinion about the subject, feel free to express it. The people who do make the decisions can read the views expressed here and take them into consideration.

By all means read through and wait until you feel more comfortable with the subject matter or just read if don’t want to participate. Your thoughts are welcome if you decide to express them.

[trailingslash]

@mattdm

I think it might be a good idea to run a new one once there’s a revised proposal,

Proposers made some changes into proposal yesterday, basically - explicit choice with a (!) dark pattern.

Do you think it’s time for the new poll? Poll something like this:

• explicit choice with a (!) dark pattern
• no telemetry

Or it’s too early for that yet?

[dalto]

@trailingslash

Do you think it’s time for the new poll? Poll something like this:

• explicit choice with a (!) dark pattern
• no telemetry

I am all for no telemetry but that seems like a pretty unfair poll to me.

The poll above captures the communities overall thoughts including various options and provides insights into the overall distribution of opinions.

[mattdm (Matthew Miller)]

@trailingslash

Or it’s too early for that yet?

I think it’s too early. Let’s wait to see what the revised proposal actually proposes.

[trailingslash]

@dalto

I am all for no telemetry but that seems like a pretty unfair poll to me.

Why it’s unfair poll? We have a clear proposal. And such poll would perfectly reflect that like the 1st poll did for the initial proposal UNOFFICIAL poll about OPT-OUT metrics proposal

The poll above captures the communities overall thoughts including various options and provides insights into the overall distribution of opinions.

it feels like a reference poll, we can keep it open, why not.

[dalto]

@trailingslash

Why it’s unfair poll?

Because it compares between something that is already a compromise position and something which is a no compromise position.

At the very least, you would have to add opt-out back to the list.

[trailingslash]

@dalto

Because it compares between something that is already a compromise position and something which is a no compromise position.

I don’t think that using a dark patterns is a compromise position at all.
They just replaced OPT-OUT (on by default) metrics with explicit choice with a dark pattern metrics

@dalto

At the very least, you would have to add opt-out back to the list.

Hmm, not sure about it yet

[mystro256 (Jeremy Newton)]

@mattdm
I don’t usually get involved in change requests; I usually just read them and say “oh that’s neat!” or “that’s interesting” or “about time!”.

This is the first time I’ve been following a change so closely and probably the only change that I’ve strongly opposed.
I have invested a lot in Fedora over the last 12 years, as I am an active package maintainer and a dedicated user, so I really hope this doesn’t get passed as it’s becoming a wedge issue for me and others. Fortunately it seems quite clear the community agrees with me based on the poll data.