Hey folks!
I have been seeing other Linux communities changed their logo to the Pride logo.
How about doing thins for Fedora as well, e.g. Telegram/Element?
Thoughts?
v/r
Andi
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Why? I understand the inclusive angle but it tends to alienate and split the community with these identity politic type proclamations because it infers the entire community is 100% behind the movement. I think we should continue with our message on inclusion irrespective of gender, gender identity, political affiliation, religious beliefs, race, or any other imposed classification without proclaiming anything else other than that everyone is welcome. I think it is high time to begin the negation of differences through communication without classification and silo’ism. In other words, let’s ignore the politic and concentrate on just making this an even more inclusive community.
So my vote on this is -1.
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I agree with @jakfrost . In my perception, Fedora has already integrated respect and tolerance. Making this a separate, explicit topic also implies to separate a group of people. I agree with the idea of supporting, but our best way to support is by setting an example, by living (which is integrating) tolerance and respect (which we, imho, already do) and show how competitive our way is: we focus on bringing different opinions and backgrounds together, which achieves knowledge and experience by challenging each other’s arguments but never each other. I like your goal but your mean may go along with explicitly separating something we had already integrated, and to shift the focus back to things like beliefs or gender. So -1.
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Hey, we already have Fedora-branded materials for Pride and have for some time. @madelinepeck recently updated the Fedora Pride logo using the new Fedora logo, and created some nice banners for a Pride-focused Fedora social hour that I believe already happened this month. So this isn’t really an idea to vote on 
We already do it.
(As a note, both myself and Madeline are the official caretakers of the Fedora logo)
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Hey @duffy That’s really awesome!!!
I am thankful for creating this with a lot of passion @duffy @madelinepeck
v/r
Andi
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I think, unfortunately, the statement “everyone is welcome” does not always mean “everyone is actually welcome” to people who have historically been excluded from some definitions of “everyone”. I get that it feels less confrontational, but to actually reach folks who have been left out by default, sometimes we need to say yes, we mean you too, specifically you.
I also like the sentiment that we’re already an tolerant, respectful place. That’s true, but we’re far from perfect — and we’ve gotten this far through hard work. (The default state of internet communities that don’t put in that work seems to be everyone yelling at each other.) I know it’s really hard to separate this from what’s going on in the world at large, but I also want to push back on the idea that allowing people to be who they are is something only for the realm of political discourse. It’s not.
Or, to put it another way: I sometimes hear that Fedora should “stay out of politics”. But, of course, the whole idea of free and open source software is deeply political. We can’t exist outside of politics. And, while I wish the world weren’t like this, that includes the politics around how we treat people who are often marginalized.
Sometimes we need to recognize and celebrate the differences that make us who we are. It’s saying “you don’t have to be in the margins, here”. I think it would be absolutely fine for us to use a Pride logo (we even have and have used the design on social media before) — but, um, same as last year, it’s kind of late. I also do kind of see the argument that a lot of brands do this just for the look, without backing it with action. It makes sense to me to make any marketing efforts like this linked to things we actually do, like Fedora week of diversity.
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That’s indeed a strong argument. In the end we have to find the way in the middle.
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Mo already responded while I was drafting my response 
Yes! We’ve been working on updating how the logo can be tied in with the Pride flag so that we don’t cross any trademark issues while still showing support.
Obviously, the Fedora community is inclusive to everyone, and I agree with @mattdm.
By creating a pride version of the logo, it isn’t meant to separate people who don’t support the LGBT community. Everyone is entitled to their way of thinking, but it’s their choice to not support whereas LGBT people have no choice in their sexuality or gender. This is about reassuring LGBT members that this space welcomes them. Especially since many spaces in technology have left them and other marginalized voices out in history.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I’m glad we can discuss it in a respectful way
There’s going to be a Fedora Social event this Thursday in Element on the last day of Pride 6/30/22 for LGBT+ and allies to come together and celebrate together. Please don’t feel like you have to be part of the community to join in, just come and have fun in a respectful manner. 
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It is not about separating people who do not support the LGBT community but about separating the LGBT community itself. I absolutely do support that community, which is the reason for my arguments. The issue is that the topic itself separates LGBT people. I prefer to refer to Fedorians, engineers or social scientists, and not to refer to LGBT. The topic reduces people to this: LGBT, instead of observing their achievements and capabilities. That was my point 
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I prefer to look at it as “highlighting” or “acknowledging respectfully” than separating.
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That’s such a wonderful response @madelinepeck
I fully agree to @mattdm statement as well!
Fedora community is inclusive to everyone!
But we have more to do and put more efforts on it
I am joining for sure the Fedora Social event
v/r
Andi
2 Likes
Ahh I see, thank you for clarifying. 
We are all united in Fedora and I think like Mo said, we can highlight secondary aspects of what makes us unique. In a way, it helps us contribute to Fedora with our different ways of thinking making it better for everyone.
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While I do agree with the sentiment and intent, as I said, I think I missed the point @andilinux was making because I didn’t know we had a Fedora Pride logo, I thought it was in reference to the Fedora Logo period.
I agree that we are late if it was to display it during Pride Week, as we have in Canada. Linking it to Fedora Diversity week is good too.
As for this discussion area, it is a club, even though it is public facing, you still need to comply with the community CoC, and sign up for an account with the FAS and therefore it is truly private. I can argue the same for Facebook, Twitter, et al. Free speech is not guaranteed, in fact it is most certainly impinged upon at times. Now I live somewhere that provides for “Freedom of Expression” in my constitution, which is not the same as “Free Speech” at all.
So my point about the politic is this, today we live in a world that has spent the better part of the last two decades bringing tighter integration of social media platforms into everyday life. This has conflated the idea that these public facing social media platforms are public, but they are not in the least. You need to agree to the terms of use to sign up and you need to sign up to communicate, talk about barriers. I don’t agree with the terms of use for, well pretty much all of them so I can’t communicate there, which is entirely unlike a public space. Combined with the limited character count on posts brings us to the point where some people don’t know how to communicate with more than 140 characters. Then further add the sorting and classification that happens to steer people to like minded individuals and we have the result we see play out in the Jan. 6 riots and the Convoy protest of this winter at my nations capital.
I guess I am trying to say, no matter our status as individuals we are all more similar than different. As fedora leads (often) in this Linux world, and in open source support, I was hoping we would start to change the conversation to instead recognize that no matter our geographical location, or whatever classification identity you wish to express, we are all alike. My concern is that as we separate our identities to the point where we emphasize the differences more than the similarities, we strengthen the divide and thus the gap grows and nothing good comes from the void in between.
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My last post intended to avoid that my arguments are interpreted as “do not support the LGBT communtiy” My goal was explicitly to support it by pointing to the negative impacts which can rise from that approach. As mentioned in my response to Matt, we have to find our way in the middle. I like the FWD, where I supported Justin a bit to clear the repo, because FWD goes along with an active action and a clear case. So, I absolutely agree with highlighting and acknowledging in terms of the FWD. It is the implicit approaches I see a bit critical: a permanent reminder without an explicit message.
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@py0xc3 I think I understand what you’re saying here. Which is why this year we chose to develop something for Pride that correlated with an event - the Fedora Social event that Madeline mentioned this week. So it’s not just about appearances but something you can do - celebrate and learn from other Fedorans!
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Yeah, it’s a complicated problem. I understand and appreciate where you are coming from. There certainly is a push to separate and polarize. But, I think that’s the thing we should fight. The world really is complicated, people really are complicated, not everything is easily sorted out. We can be essentially alike in humanity, but with infinite different expressions.
Yes, I agree, celebrate our uniqueness. And please don’t mistake my response for misunderstanding the complexities involved, I tend to understate as a general habit. Though I have travelled a bit around our world and truly find people are really the same wherever you go, and that also includes those with different spiritual beliefs than mine. My point is truly not that I want Fedora to try and change the world, but that I would not be afraid as a community member to see us move forward like we did with diversity week for instance. Yes the world is complicated, but most of that complication is merely forced upon us by someone else or ourselves.
I guess maybe I was brought up different than most, in that my parents never differentiated us (my family) from any other human being we encountered. We were all taught to treat other people as we would desire to be treated. Be independent in thought and action, don’t be afraid to question the norm. And talking about even the difficult things is communication and communication is how you move froward to common ground. The sharing of knowledge is one of the prime reasons I come to the Fedora Community, this includes these types of discussions.
I am aware of and recognize the fact that often POV’s are seemingly so disparate that to reach common ground seems impractical/not achievable, but truly in most differences of opinion it usually boils down to a couple of really salient sticking points and further discussion will normally lead to that glorious middle ground. In any case you and I have deviated quite far from the original posted topic so maybe we can have a watercooler chat about social engineering sometime, eh? 
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@duffy @madelinepeck Originally, this thread was about the question if we shall change the Fedora logo at places like Element or Telegram to a pride logo. This is the context in which @jakfrost and I made our arguments, and in which our arguments have to be interpreted. We neither questioned LGBT efforts in general nor the related Fedora events.
I’m also not a fan of changing the logo on a temporary basis to align with external events, celebrations, movements, etc. We have a logo which is our project’s identity. I don’t really like seeing it reworked on a temporary basis because it breaks dilutes that branding.
If we’re going to adopt alternate branding to celebrate pride month, why not for any number of other humanitarian issues? Put another way, why is the LGBT community special and elevated above all other minority groups and and their struggles? Why don’t we have a black black lives matter logo and a blue/yellow Ukraine logo and a magen David holocaust memorial day logo?
There’s no end.
This is leaving aside that all of these things, including the pride flag, have political connotations as well, but I really have no interest in discussing those points because I want to advocate a neutral and apolitical policy: one official logo at a time, unaffiliated with other movements and projects.
That said, if other people in the project really want such a logo, fine, it’s not a make-or-break thing for me, but it’s not my preferred path. I thought the themed social today was a much better way to go and a lot more relevant as far as actually being inclusive.
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