Fedora IceWM (X11) and/or labwc (Wayland) spin?

The Water Cooler
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Hi. I want to ask the Fedora community and developers if there would be an interest in creating and maintaining an IceWM spin for X11 users (this would currently be me) or a labwc spin for Wayland users (this could potentially be me)?

Fedora already offers the best IceWM experience out of the big three Linux distro families (Debian GNU/Linux, Arch Linux and Fedora Linux) when it comes to theming and such, but the “problem” is it is just a Window Manager albeit a very Desktop Environment one.

I have kept up with the Fedora news of offering/promoting the KDE spin as a promoted/equal to the Gnome Workstation and one of the reasons of the proposal was that KDE Plasma offers an Out of the Box experience more like a “traditional desktop”.

I have noticed, playing with Fedora in virtual machines, a noticeable difference in perceived “speed” between KDE and IceWM whether it is just logging in to the system or opening the menu.

I have utilized a 5400 rpm harddrive (i.e. not SSD) for this, but also noticed the same in non-equal laptops (physical hardware) where the older and slower laptop with IceWM (HDD) logs in faster than a modern laptop with KDE (SSD).

Both on the modern Fedora 41 Core system.

IceWM and/or labwc configured with a panel and menu (both environments needing programs/applications) could be an alternative spin for users on low end hardware and/or users with performance in mind for users used to a “traditional desktop” and not tiling window managers like i3 which already have a spin.

How would one go about to ask about this in official means? I am using the Fedora Discussion forum to “lift it up”, but since I have not been a member of the GNU/Linux community in large merely a user I am lifting this question here.

I personally have no history of packaging whether it is in the .deb-format or .rpm-format, have not been involved in Free and Open Source software projects before. I would just be interested in a traditional desktop i.e. an IceWM on X11 or a labwc spin with a panel and menu on Wayland for Fedora which works on decent and recent, perhaps even “ancient”, hardware.

As of now I just use the Xfce application suite together with IceWM, but I understand that an official spin must come with its own packages. I am talking about file manager, network configuration, firewall configuration, text editor, terminal, graphical package manager etc. which of course can be more lightweight than what I currently use.

This is my first post and I created the account with only this question in mind. I want to thank the Fedora community for introducing me to IceWM (highlighted in Fedora Magazine in 2019). labwc is not something I have familiarized myself with (yet) but seems to be the Wayland alternative to a minimal stacking window manager even though it is more openbox inspired. Also excuse me if the sway spin already covers this use case (a “traditional desktop” with a panel and a menu, at the bottom of the screen/display).

Spin it up or no spin?

(Also I am not really sure what “tag” to choose for this discussion?)

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I moved it to the water-cooler. This way you can discuss this also with users which are a part of a WG of a spin as you would like to have.

It is so that you would have some experience to maintain such a spin or being willing to get into it. But normally you as an individual which likes to create a spin, would have to bring up the manpower and being able to helps setting up a WG (Work Group).

If you are fine with an existing spin, you might could just participate in such a WG to get the necessary know-how and prepare to create the own spin.

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TY. I was perhaps a little hasty posting in the wrong category.

This post or discussion is just to see if there is a general interest in a lightweight traditional desktop (i.e. MS Windows 2000 alike) for Fedora users to come as an official spin.

My current “workflow” for installing Fedora is using the Everything netinst iso and then installing the preferred DM+WM/DE from there, which is what most intermediate/advanced users would do.

This spin proposal would be aimed to traditional desktop users, perhaps coming from and being used to other proprietary operating systems with a slighter older hardware configuration.

As I said I have no prior experience of participating in FOSS development/maintenance, but I would be interested to “step up” for this amazing opportunity since the pre-configured IceWM experience in Fedora with themes are so good (even for 4K displays). There are some things I have not really investigated like the equivalent of “xdg_menu” command/program/script in Arch Linux (I’m sure it exists in Fedora or otherwise it would be an excellent example for the proposed spin to utilize an equal experience). This would be to get a “clean” menu, but I would be willing to work with current implementation too.

I as an individual does not of course have the manpower behind me, which is why I bring up the discussion to see if there are more willing people to get behind such project (traditional desktop, low end hardware, modern software).

If there is an interest, post in thread. Otherwise, just ignore or post disagreements.

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Fist, welcome to Fedora @erikp232

I remember the first steps I made here. As it is a big Community it is not so easy to find out where to get into it.

In the meantime the Docs got quite big with a lot of information about it. See the link in the Welcome to Fedora I posted above.

I am having a look into labwc while I see the available package but it comes un-configured. (I am also reading in the arch wiki about it :slight_smile:
A good start would be to write how you configured it and let us see what you could do so far.

In this section, The Water Cooler you can easily create a topic to introduce your selves and or write which experiences you made so far with this Fedora packages for IceWM and Labwc. I am sure you will find users which follow your instructions.

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It could be interesting to see a labwc spin. I would suggest first finding folks interested in making a good labwc experience and creating a team to build it. We typically call these teams Special Interest Groups (and we have a lot of them!).

Once you’ve got a SIG working together to build out the experience, making it something that’s available as an easy install from the netinstall ISO is the next step. Then as it’s refined and all the expected corners of the experience are built out, then making a spin can be discussed.

This is essentially the path that Fedora COSMIC has taken.

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Oh no no more spins! :slight_smile: Windows Managers rock, and it would be great to have more people use them. I think unless you do it yourself though, it will not get done. Personally I use Sway WM, but I don’t use the spin, I just install it on top on the netinstall ‘custom OS’ or minimal install.

You should however write some documentation for your favourite flavour. Maybe a magazine article or a ‘docs’ page. You can start in the ‘wiki’, or even here in the Water Cooler or on your own site.

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I kinda agree with the “no more spins” mentality, but the idea of a package group for WM:s, in this case labwc with a panel and programs for graphically operating with the system like for example frontend for firewalld, network-manager-applet, audio management, dnfdragora, would be very helpful for beginners of Linux and Fedora Linux specifically who in this case would be used to traditional desktops and perhaps running on older hardware.

Maybe the LXQt spin/package group already covers this use case though.

I will certainly look more into labwc, the reason for a “spin” (or really a package group configured with so called sane defaults for users) would be that non-developers (labwc uses XML for configuration, IceWM what I would call “plain english”) could just install and then use Fedora without the need (but possibility) for customization.

I have some HTML and virsh edit experience so I would be able to read the labwc documentation and set up a (for me) reasonable environment.

The discussion would be to create a SIG as I have been noticed it is called with the eventual end goal of creating a spin (not really necessary if the package group exists for easy installation in the Everything netinstaller Software Selection).

Intermediate and advanced users of labwc (or preferred Wayland compositor) will just go on as usual with their Fedora experience. Like when I very recently installed Fedora 41 for a relative, minimal install and the KDE package which cuts off some of the spin-specific programs and utilities. If the relative were to install the OS by self I would have pointed to the official spin for an easier installation and/or configuration process.

I will start by setting up a labwc environment, researching panels etc. and trying to emulate the Fedora IceWM experience. Then documenting and posting in this thread before going through official methods of creating a SIG, i.e. scary mailing lists and official wikis.

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It took me ages to start with Matric chats (chat.fedoraproject.org) and to join a SIG. But when I did, it opened up a whole area and support that I did not expect.
I tried out the Sway Spin the other day, and I reckon they could use some help over there. Just jump on Matrix and say hi, it is remarkable how friendly people here in the back-rooms are. You could probably get what you are looking for and the help you will need all in one.

With the wikis they are meant for development purposes, so not so scary, and others can contribute too.

X is rapidly being deprecated, I would certainly look at labwc if you’re going forward.

And don’t overlook the documenttation idea! A well written page and an hour install could give people what you want them to have.

Keep up the good work! And have fun doing it!

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Yes me to, everything what is an alternative to x11 sounds good for me. X11 long time has been ok, but the trend is to abandon it.

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I agree with the X11/Wayland and progress looking forward. That is why I as an IceWM user included labwc which seems to be “the only” Wayland stacking compositor.

Baby steps, but I have a Fedora 41 with sddm, labwc and alacritty with a menu that can access alacritty in a VM. Manually configured menu and rc.xml which would have to be scripted (e.g. using curl instead of wget as documentation of labwc on homepage suggests since Fedora Custom OS does not come with wget).

Then there is the choice of filemanager etc. I as a simple GNU/Linux user (i.e. not programmer, maintainer, developer etc.) have used the IceWM + Xfce application suite combo for a couple of years.

I am not a “power user”, but the idea would be to provide a simple desktop, light on resources, using upstream technology, for “grandma” to use. Also on a more personal note the so called “gamers” which is a niche userbase where Fedora with updated packages and kernel/drivers could shine (if instructions to install proprietary GPU drivers and game store client[s] are provided through non-project-affiliated Fedora-channels).

I can only speak for myself, but Fedora as a base installation of GNU/Linux (totally Free and Open Source) is a great way to “introduce” the general public to Linux. This also applies to Debian GNU/Linux, but for the target audience (labwc is fast moving as a Wayland compositor while not introducing features that changes workflow and/or UX i.e. a floating panel) I think Fedora is “the way to go”.

I am personally looking for a Wayland-IceWM and have come to the conclusion that it must be built by either myself or a community like myself.

The motto of IceWM is:

The goal of IceWM is speed, simplicity, and not getting in the user’s way.

This is exactly the UX a modern, easy to install and maintain Linux distribution should aim for which is what would be “provided” by a labwc “spin” or package group with the modern Wayland implementation.

I am maybe a bit rambling, but I will build the “perfect” setup, use dnf history to include all the packages required and then “script it up” for an easy way to accomplish this with the current labwc package of Fedora.

Just give me a bit of time and consideration. Thanks for all the uplifting comments.

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