Personally find this proposition to be the best, as a kde user myself, both DE have their own merits, would help with the promotion of KDE as an equal to Gnome instead of being seen as second-class citizen in Fedora.
2 Likes
I knew it. . . I also feel vindicated now.
3 Likes
Iâm not used to how the Discussion dynamics work, but honestly this post should have comments blocked by now.
The comments became a popularity contest, flame-war and baiting.
8 Likes
4.Some posters suggest that Fedora could improve the visibility of KDE Plasma for new users. Are users who have never heard of KDE Plasma or the Fedora spin of KDE Plasma well advised to learn about KDE Plasma for the first time on the download page of the Fedora websiteâand wouldnât they be better off using the GNOME desktop?
A: Fedora only actively promotes the Gnome experience, the most supported DEs are Gnome and KDE, as a new user they wouldnât know how well supported the spins variants are. Gnome is not the fit all needs desktop environment thats why spins exist but KDE/Plasma is important enough to be a blocker for fedora updates.
Also about this discussion, people are being too biased over DE, at the end of the day theyâre a tool for a goal and their end users are different.
1 Like
Iâm inclined to agree. I donât want to shut down reasonable discussion, but I donât think there is much more to add here. If people want to keep discussing their desktop environment preferences, please take it to The Water Cooler â but even then, please keep things constructive and positive.
12 Likes
You say that a discussion about which desktop environment is better to be fruitless, and then proceed to list all of the ways you think GNOME is better for new users.
I donât understand the question. The change proposal is advocating for Fedora Workstation to replace GNOME with KDE Plasma. Currently the pages on the website for Fedora Workstation donât even inform users that they are installing a distribution with GNOME, so why would a page for downloading Fedora Workstation with KDE need to teach new users all about KDE Plasma?
5 Likes
My personal stance, agreeing with some comments above, would be to create a single webpage promoting 2 editions live cd/usb, KDE and Gnome, as âFedora Workstationâ, this solution shouldnât cause too many issues or problems for existing Gnome users and would help promote KDE adoption as an alternative to Gnome.
This would align with what many other distros already do and increase awareness of alternative desktop environment outside of whatâs most popular. It would also reflect the importance of KDE in Fedora.
I personally donât see the reason why Fedora as a community project wouldnât be able to promote objectively the 2 most popular desktops environment.
6 Likes
Exactly, and considering the current status of the KDE Spin as a ârelease blockerâ this shouldnât really add extra effort for quality control anyway.
This compromise proposal (KDE and GNOME treated equally) would basically only change the website (how KDE is presented) and the Workstation installer (either two ISOs or one with a desktop selection in the installer). I think that would be the most sensible option.
And for the atomic versions it is already handled similarly, with Silverblue and Kinoite being the only ones that keep their âownâ name while the others are renamed to âFedora Atomic $Desktopâ, and also a mostly equal representation of Silverblue and Kinoite on the website.
3 Likes
I posted this on the mailing list, but I guess I can cross-post:
From Red Hatâs POV it is not Fedora Gnome Workstation (GNOME is not the default for Fedora Workstation | Christian F.K. Schaller).
One of the best things with Fedora Workstation is that it is a complete user facing OS (like Windows, macOS and iOS) that you actually can develop applications for (if you want to). You donât have to target the extremely fluffy âLinux desktopâ, you can target Fedora Workstation. This proposal would totally eliminate the good points of having this single OS and app platform.
/Andreas
2 Likes
This is precisely why people say that KDE is second-class citizen. I donât think thereâs much else to say about KDE or Gnome at this point.
2 Likes
What IBM wants should be irrelevant unless we want people to continue with the meme that Fedora is just beta testing for RHEL. And thereâs already examples for when the Fedora community made their own decisions, such as btrfs by default for example.
The KDE spin is a different âproductâ (or platform). It is up to you if you think that is âsecond-classâ or not.
So you are saying that Fedora should not consider downstreams like CentOS Stream, AlmaLinux, Rocky and RHEL?
Anyway, the main point is that Fedora Workstation is a âplatformâ (or complete user OS), and this proposal changes that platform completely.
2 Likes
Iâm not saying Gnome should be dropped, so I donât see how it would damage RHEL.
Also, Fedora should do whatâs best for Fedora
1 Like
I realize I havenât said anything about this proposal yet, even though my name is on it. That isnât because I donât care about it, but I find if I reply too quickly, I often say things poorly. But Iâd like to clear up some things.
Do I want KDE in RHEL again?
No, I do not. I did not sign this proposal to try to get KDE back into RHEL. I like the current situation we have with KDE in EPEL.
Are you upset/frustrated with the current website?
I like the new website design. Spins are much more prominent and easy to find. I want to thank everyone who worked on the new design. The old website had spins as an afterthought, below everything. I think the designers listened to our frustration and made things much better.
Do you think this proposal will pass?
No. At least not as it was originally written. But it was written much better than I could write a proposal. And I have faith in the Fedora community and process. That as a community, we can look at a problem, and figure out a solution.
Why did you sign this proposal?
There are several reasons. Some build on others, while others stand alone.
1 - There is a glass ceiling in Fedora, and I wanted to show it to others and see how they feel about it.
If you look at the Fedora Editions, it is very easy to see that those are all Fedora versions of Red Hat products. The Spins, Labs, and Atomic Desktop are not. Since the website re-work, that isnât as big of a problem as it used to be. I am not really griping about this, I am merely pointing it out, because it affects my second point.
2 - I am concerned about Red Hatâs focus on the desktop.
In the past, whenever Iâve brought up getting KDE promoted, it was always shut down with something saying that Gnome was funded by Red Hat.
But in the past two years, weâve seen changes in the desktop applications that Red Hat is supporting. LibreOffice is the big one, but there have been other smaller applications that have been dropped as well. As I brought packages over from Fedora to CentOS Stream 10, Iâve noticed a few other desktop applications missing as well.
I am not saying the Gnome desktop developers at Red Hat are getting cut. I do not think that is going to happen, and I really hope it does not happen.
What I am saying, is that more and more of the Fedora Gnome desktop is becoming community supported. The time might come that outside of the core Gnome desktop apps, Fedora Workstation will be community supported. And the argument that Gnome is the default desktop because Red Hat is supporting it, will be less valid.
3 - (Stand Alone) I like KDE
I donât think that is a secret. I like it so much that Iâm willing to help support it. I would love for it to be the default desktop.
I also think Gnome is a solid desktop. It is not for me. But I realize that others like it.
4 - As a member of the KDE SIG, KDE user and maintainer, I felt that my voice, and the voice of the KDE community, wasnât being heard.
Was it heard by the website people? Yes. And thank you very much for your changes.
Was it heard by the workstation team? Until I read Mattâs reply here, I didnât even know thatâs where I/we should go.
Everytime I would bring up that we need more exposure, I would hear the same thing âYou are a volunteer group, Gnome has payed people. Itâs not going to happen.â I am hoping that this time people will listen and talk, rather than just ignore any proposal we have.
22 Likes
While Iâm nobody special in the slightest, just a random end user of Fedora, I do think you are onto something here to some extent.
I do agree that in its current state, this proposal wonât (and Iâd argue shouldnât) pass, BUT it has bought to the attention of many the state that Fedora KDE is in and I think I and many others are of the belief that it should be promoted to flagship alongside Fedora GNOME.
KDE and GNOME are by far the two biggest Linux DEâs and Iâd argue Fedora provides one of the most polished ways to experience both of these DEâs. To me, personally, it makes a lot of sense to put KDE up there alongside GNOME to both recognise the work done by the KDE Spin team and to promote Fedora KDE in a way that it deserves.
We all could argue till the cows come home about which DE would truly be better for Fedora, but in practice that would accomplish nothing. Iâd argue considering how polished both KDE and GNOME are on Fedora it makes all the sense in the world to promote the two to stand side by side as Fedoraâs flagships and to give users that choice on how they want to experience this OS that all of us here care about quite dearly.
But hey, thatâs just my 2 cents, again, Iâm just a random end user who doesnât know all the ins and outs about all this stuff works entirely, but I do believe embracing both of these options would be the most sensible way forwards that also remains in line with one of the core philosophies of Linux, user choice.
5 Likes
This comment might seem out of place, but at what point do the @Mods step in a close this thread. It will never cease, with differing opinions, moving the goal post here and there, it can go on indefinitely.
From the outside looking in, Itâs also a bad look for the community. This type of thread with so many views and comments can only lead to volitility and loss of focus on the Original post.
4 Likes
Thank you for that, and I agree 100%. To everything. This proposal is not meant to be accepted as-is but only as a baseline, just to honestly output a desire to promote KDE more in Fedora.
1 Like
I have very mixed feelings about this.
First, I want to agree that the current state is not very fair, as âWorkstationâ is presented as âFedoraâ and the rest is a âSpinâ. I attribute 50%+ of GNOMEs marketshare on Fedora to this presentation.
I think KDE and GNOME are both awesome desktops, COSMIC will likely become one in 1 year or so. So I would agree wirth @bonsai465 to have 2 Workstation Desktops.
I also agree with @bonsai465 that KDE is a good second best experience, where things like Budgie are not as polished.
I dont agree at all with @steiner that Brodies audience, just as people actively writing here, are GNOME-haters. They are enthusiasts, just like enthusiasts would more likely use a âSpinâ than âWorkstationâ. And I think that KDE has such a big userbase, even though often treated like âthe ADHD desktopâ is remarkable.
I disagree with @barracuda0207 as the stated points where GNOME is similar to MacOS are things I wouldnt even think about. There are a ton of similarities, just like KDE is in many parts a Windows clone. GNOME and KDE are not 100% innovative and that is okay.
I want to stress that the KDE Plasma Experience on Fedora is great, I highly prefer it over Ubuntu based OSes.
I agree with @farchord that KDE is just as close to the edge as Fedora, and both are a great combination.
I agree with @tqcharm that having âWorkstation GNOMEâ and âWorkstation KDEâ may be too complicated for many users. I would just add short videos of the Desktops, say âboth are nice, use what you wantâ and call it a day.
I really like this way of presenting as mentioned by @barracuda0207.
I can imagine that letting people decide âby intuitionâ could lead to many people using KDE, even though they might prefer GNOME. But thats just a small thought.
I really like the comment by @doomsdayrs about neurodivergent experience with GNOME and KDE and think I agree.
I would be hesitant to install something so untraditional on old peoples PCs, but thinking about it, its actually so much simpler. Pressing the home button, or the Meta key is basically the same.
1 Like
I3/Gnome End user here;
Hey all! thank you for opening this up to discussion. I would like to articulate my thoughts on this.
The good
First being Windows parody, one of the big challenges with Linux as a whole is the transition from Windows to Linux. KDE, is just better with this; more tooling out of the box, things are where Windows users more/less expect them, and program/window management feels familiar. I believe that this experience can help lubricate this transition.
Secondly, i believe there are generally more features, and more flexibility with KDE. Generally speaking, there is a script, panel, add on, global theme, for just about ANYTHING, and giving users these tools right away is often helpful for immediate user retention.
Third and finally: Separation from libadwaita; this is a personal grudge and a bit of a thorn in my side. With libadwaita increasing in popularity, I believe user mobility is being greatly suppressed, a major distribution stepping off gnome could help motivate things in a different (potentially better) direction.
The bad
First, and foremost, the 15 min, and 4 hour KDE bugs are still a MAJOR issue (i have a laundry list i wonât get into right now). The entry user experience, as powerful as it is, can be a minefield of instability for new Linux users (and the often in-optimal hardware that accompanies). In addition the recent incidents with KDEâs marketplace leaves something to be desired.
Second, while the windows-esc nature of KDE can help lubricate the transition. It can also mislead, and cause false expectations from a UX perspective. Its important to recognize, Fedora is not windows and it never will be. Gnome isnât trying to be anything that its not, its not windows-esc; but whoâs to say thatâs a bad thing?
In summary
I donât think the transition of the flagship makes much sense. However, I think promotion from the âSpinâ status (basically a change in marketing) could help nudge KDE into more visibility, and get the help it needs and deserves from the community.
Generally I think the ârip it off like a bandaidâ approach is deeply flawed, because at the end of the day it harms the NEW users the most. The users that are critical to gain marketshare, are the very users who could be impacted the MOST from a change like this (for better or worse).
Keep in mind this is all my perspective, and should not be taken as anything else.
2 Likes