Great idea.
KDE offers a Windows-like experience. Linux distributions need to win over users that tired of Windows. Most users install Ubuntu and then give up because they can’t use the interface. Linux distributions need to increase their user numbers. If they do, more software support will come, and they can gain momentum. I believe this change needs to be made to acquire users. Fedora should be taking users from Windows, not from Ubuntu or Mac OS. The wind is in favor of KDE.
I am a Windows user and I loved KDE 6. I was looking for a Linux distribution that supports KDE 6 and I found Fedora.
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Honestly this would have been really nice. EndeavourOS shows all kinds of different desktop environments and WM’s in their image.
So why not Fedora as well? Would help people to make their choices.
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In my opinion EndeavourOS provides too many DE to choose from during installation. Might be confusing to newcomers.
If Fedora wants to go this route, I strongly suggest putting a bolded “If you don’t know which to choose, choose this one” in the description of one of the DE (probably GNOME).
I would leave out the nudge (“choose this one if you don’t know”) but I would limit the choice to KDE and GNOME, not all the other desktops. And show some screenshots and some explanation.
Below are some screenshots from the Mageia and OpenSUSE installers - I think we can definitely improve on those!
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Great post bringing in some solid stats into the conversation Matthew, thanks for that!
As much as its a tied trope, defaults really do matter and any extra step that is required for users adoption of a DE is going to be a hurdle.
I’d like to think Linux users arn’t the ‘next, next, next’ type, but the reality is that most people want to jump on and get cracking with their work.
Just having an left right split at install time with a screenshot of showing users what to expect from their choice would be an excellent idea, something similar to what is shown on the spin page for KDE.
Having an A/B choice with no default selected, would go a long way in showing users that there are other options available, as without diving into the spins pages there really isn’t much indication that there is any options outside of GNOME during the install process.
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That is already available, in the netinstaller. The “normal” images boot directly into a desktop environment, so that you can try/use it without installing anything. That is IMHO a powerful feature and should be preserved. But it also forces you to select a DE before you download the ISO, even if selecting another one was possible during the install process.
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Echoing what’s already been said by many, MANY others before me, but I believe this sizable of a pivot would not be the way we want to go with this. I do believe the KDE spin should be promoted better if not promoted to an edition as mentioned by others above but I believe replacing GNOME with KDE as the default DE is very much not a good idea.
Sure, KDE might be more feature rich than GNOME in areas, but part of why I use GNOME is because even though things might take a tad longer to come out on it, what I can rely on when those features do come out on GNOME is that they’ll be stable, functional and consistent with the rest of the system. GNOME’s biggest advantage in general is how cohesive it is to a degree I haven’t seen any other DE match and it helps a lot with overall visual presentation and usability, both things that are especially important in what is considered the flagship edition of Fedora.
I’m going to in turn agree with what others have proposed so far and say that if anything, the KDE spin should be promoted to a full edition to give it more visibility but it should absolutely not be replacing GNOME as the default DE for workstation. That’s both a significantly drastic change and one that isn’t really solving any problems rather than moving them. I know KDE Spin users have said they feel like second class citizens but all this would do would be swapping the positions of Fedora GNOME and Fedora KDE users, there would be a new second class citizen. The best way forward is promoting both of them to first class flagships which I believe they both wholeheartedly deserve
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Here is an outsider’s opinion.
In the early 2000’s, when working in QA (s/w functional testing), I’ve been experimenting with several Linux flavors, just for the fun of it.
In the last 15 years, however, I have been using macOS, both at work (non-tech industry) and at home. During those years, I’ve seen and experimented all the end-user transitions from mainly desktop usage to a full integration between desktop - phone - tablet - services - wearables, as a seamless experience.
A couple of months ago I stumbled upon Linux (and chose Fedora for the purpose) by chance, and reminded myself of my old passion: try to use Linux as much as possible as an average user would (maily GUI apps, and terminal just for very specific needs when a graphical app is missing), in the hope that some time in the future, Linux would get higher adoption.
And if higher adoption is also a goal of the Linux comunity (as mentioned already in this thread), then I guess ease of use, consistency, stability, integration with cloud services, all within a DE which is distinctive in its own way from the other desktop OSes, should be the drivers.
And while having more users means basically gaining users from other OSes, mainly Windows (given its highest market share), statistics show that in recent years Windows lost users in favour of macOS, and not the other way around (I personally understand this shift). Therefore, criteria for gaining users shouldn’t be resemblence of the UI with Windows, but rather answering the needs of the users which are switching OS.
In case Fedora Workstation would stay with one default DE, somehow I feel GNOME does a better job in meeting the above mentioned goals.
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Having more than one option on the website or in the installer instantly changes Fedora from the best choice for newcomers to something more advanced in my opinion.
I can now tell my students to install “Kubuntu/Fedora/Elementary…” without them having to know what KDE, Gnome, Xfce, Cinnamon… are. If the first thing they see is a wall of unfamiliar words, they essentially have to do their homework. And searching online for which one is better for their needs will bring up countless flame wars, like this thread, and they’ll give up.
Whatever the outcome of this proposal, in my opinion there should only be “Workstation” and “Others”.
One distro I can’t recommend to students is openSUSE, because it makes too many assumptions about user knowledge. Tumbleweed vs. Leap, offline vs. network image, countless install groups… I don’t want Fedora to become that.
All these descriptions of DEs on distro pages are misleading. “Elegant”, “Simple”… Don’t these apply to all of them? If I were a newcomer, they wouldn’t help me make a decision. Nor would screenshots, to the untrained eye Xfce, Mate, Cinnamon and sometimes KDE look identical.
Steam Deck has been mentioned a lot, but keep in mind that they have different goals. A game console shouldn’t influence the choices of a distribution whose primary product is a Workstation. And Steam Deck is a bad case anyway, the OS is not open source and it doesn’t even use KDE’s compositor, it uses Gamescope as far as I know, which is what game studios will test on.
On KDE’s website Fedora is listed 4th, on Gnome’s it’s listed 1st. As I mentioned in my other reply, this decision is more likely to cause Gnome to look for alternatives, while not even becoming KDE’s first choice. I’m a Fedora user of neither of these DEs, I want what’s best for Fedora, and currently the Fedora-Gnome relationship is a win-win for both.
As a side note, adding only one spin to the home page or installer next to Workstation will rightly result in similar suggestions for all other spins. After all, the KDE spin is much closer to the Xfce and Cinnamon spins than the Workstation spin, based on the previously shared data.
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I don’t think GNOME really resembles MacOS. There’s some superficial similarities - like a preference for client-side decorations, not showing folders first in the file manager, and hiding a lot of functionality behind keyboard shortcuts. But that’s where it ends.
MacOS uses a dock to switch between apps, it supports tray icons to control background apps, it has shortcuts and files on the desktop, and every program uses traditional menu bars (they’re just located in the global menu). So in all these areas, which I would say are the main GNOME “controversies”, MacOS uses a more traditional UI approach and resembles Windows or KDE Plasma more closely than GNOME.
I didn’t want to imply that GNOME resembles MacOS, besides the similarities mentioned by you. I consider it has its own personality, which is a good thing.
I am sure though that both macOS and Windows ca be sources of inspiration for many other DEs, be it GNOME, KDE or others.
I tried that once to show both to me cousin, Silverblue was broken after going back from Kionite, so it works surprisingly well but some settings and stuff seam to be not isolated enougth, but if i understand it right systemd-homed should be able to solve that.
What, for mimicking Windows behaviour? I disagree wholeheartedly.
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On both i would leave out the last point…
The problem with this is that there is a desktop on the Live CD, i mean it would be awesome to have a LiveCD where you can test both next to each other (with two users one with gnome, one with plasma, for example)
My recommendation would be Gnome on Devices that are used mainly with Touchscreens and / or Touchpad and Plasma with Mouse.
Just wanted to add my two cents and say I agree with the proposal for the reasons stated.
I personally prefer the Plasma Desktop Environment and think that many newcomers to Linux and Fedora - especially from a Windows environment - would find it more familiar and relatable.
I also agree with the points made by others earlier that I don’t think the KDE Plasma is promoted anywhere near enough and if it was it would probably have an even bigger user base.
Edit - not that it’s a popularity contest but interesting to see what subscribers of YouTuber Brodie Robertson have indicated:
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I never said a thing about Windows, please read what I wrote more carefully.
While I may not agree with this big of a change, I do think think it is of worth to have constructive criticism and dialogue. Perhaps there could be a middle ground? Given today’s digital resources, there could be:
- an online installer that offers the user both options of either GNOME or KDE “Workstation”, since ultimately it should be the user’s choice (as is Fedora Everything)
- an offline option to install just a GNOME “Workstation” ISO (as is our current state)
- an offline option to install just a KDE “Workstation” ISO (as is the respins)
- an offline option to install either or both GNOME or KDE “Workstation” ISO
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To be fair, the results there are as biased as they can be, considering that a lot of his audience is composed of the type of people that make hating on GNOME their whole personality, the “Phoronix comment section” types.
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But KDE is Windows like, and hence it’s general easier acceptance by newly minted Linux users who are used to the spoon fed windows/mac experience. It crufts up your desktop similar to the aforementioned consumer products.
And frankly, the proposal appears as an inappropriate use of the change proposal process to side step the WorkStation Work Group, which is the group responsible for Fedora’s flagship Workstation release.
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This poll is as doable as posting on the KDE sub Reddit asking which DE they use.
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