I wholeheartedly agree. KDE should get more advertising without putting down the work the GNOME team has done over the years.
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Hi, everyone. Iâm just an average user, I suppose. I do web, office stuff like docs and my yoga tracking spreadsheets, emails, and look at my photos, mainly.
My MacBook laptop still works, but itâs so old now that it doesnât get updates from Apple. So, about a year ago I asked my nephew for help, and he told me about Fedora and how itâs kinda like OS X, but it gets updates still.
So, he installed Fedora on my laptop and he said he would start me off with something called Gnome. I didnât really understand what this Gnome thing was or what it did, but I decided to try it for at least a month.
Iâm not an expert but Iâve been using computers since the early 1990s at work and at home, and that was the worst month Iâve ever had with a computer. I just didnât understand this Gnome thing. It wasnât intuitive like OS X and even Windows were. I couldnât figure out how to do things that used to be so easy for me to do. I became so slow at using my own laptop! I also felt bad because I had to bug my nephew almost every day about how to do really simple things that I didnât even have to think about when I was using OS X.
After four awful weeks, I exasperatedly told my nephew that I wanted to go back to OS X, even if it wasnât going to get updates. At least I could use my computer to do things then! He talked me out of that, though, and said I should try this KDE thing first.
I was very skeptical after Gnome but once my nephew showed me KDE on his laptop, it seemed to make so much sense to me. So, I agreed to try KDE for a month, and he set it up for me on my laptop.
It was like night and day! Thanks to KDE, I could finally understand my laptop again. Everything just made sense, and it only took me a few days to become as fast as I was on OS X. When the end of my second week of using KDE came around, I could tell that I was faster with it than I was with OS X even. Thereâs no way Iâm going back.
I wish that Iâd started using KDE right away. It would have saved me from enduring that awful first month of Gnome, and it would have saved my nephew so much time, too.
KDE isnât perfect, but itâs been so much better for me than Gnome. Gnome is maybe the worst software Iâve ever used and in my previous life as a corporate accountant, I used some really unusable software. My nephew emailed me this web forum and said I should give my feedback.
If I ever get a new laptop and I get my nephew to put Fedora on it, Iâm going to have to have to ask him to install KDE too, because I will never use Gnome ever again. If KDE were already going to be installed that would make his life and my life better.
Sincerely,
Jennifer
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Disclaimer: I am KDE dev. But I write this post as a user.
Basically, I donât really care that much what is the default. The problem is discoverability itself.
It feels like every spin is hidden in some dark cupboard of alternatives, and users have to scour through that cupboard to find what they want.
Had I not found about the other desktop environments as a newbie Linux distro user, I wouldnât have stayed. I have nothing against GNOME or their design decisions or anything like that; It just was not for me. I am very particular about my computer setups and Windows never let me explore that side. KDE Plasma did and now I am here, loving it so much I ended up contributing a lot. 
(As a side note, I am also neurodivergent, AuDHD to be exact, and I find many other DEâs too restraining to fill my needs.)
I am glad I found the secret âalternative DEâsâ section of Ubuntu and then Fedora, because now I am really happy using my PC.
So basically my tiny proposal is following: Showcase both KDE Plasma and GNOME side by side on the frontpage of Fedora project. Or, hey, why not showcase all spins? Show screenshots and differences.
Fedora is clearly more than just one DE, and that should be proudly showcased⌠And not hidden in bottom of page in sea of links that tell nothing to a newcomer.
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I adore KDE Plasma, the KDE community/project, how they operate, and all of thatâŚbut I donât think this holds water as a compelling reason for such a massive change, and frankly this is all that matters for a change like this - does it uniquely benefit the Fedora Project to prioritize KDE Plasma over the GNOME desktop?
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âMost advanced Wayland desktopâ is based on what rubric?
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Do we have confirmation that the overwhelming majority of Fedora Workstation users are clamoring for HDR, VRR, and VR gaming?
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Do we have evidence that, for example, hardware vendors who were considering shipping devices with Fedora pre-installed said âNo, because your desktop environment is too differentâ?
And on a selfish âKDE fanâ and more anecdotal noteâŚIMO, at least in its current form, KDE Plasma is best served by being used by those who self-select into it, rather than being the default option for a massive distribution. KDE Plasma being the default for an Arch Linux-based OS like EndeavourOS makes total sense for that user base.
However, I have a hard time imagining that the things that KDE Plasma is better at than GNOME are as important to the average user as power users think they are. If we want to argue that they are, we need more than assertions that they are important from the folks who already prioritize, use and enjoy those features - the âtechnical meritsâ donât actually matter. What matters is whether users who donât currently self-select into Fedora KDE instead of Fedora Workstation (GNOME) should be ushered into KDE instead.
The anecdote, FWIW - my wife and I have a Steam Deck. She is overall a very sophisticated Windows PC user - sheâs does accounting, not programming, but she can work her way around many obstacles that throw off the average user, and has been doing so for almost 20 years. When she tried to use the Steam Deckâs Desktop ModeâŚshe lasted about a minute before handing it to me, saying it was too hard to use.
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I would like to add a note about this idea: If multiple spins/workstation are presented next to each other without preference, I would limit it to KDE and GNOME (and if applicable, other spins that are maintained on that level), because Spins unfortunately differ by more than just the GUI. KDE and GNOME are well maintained, but some other spins had in the past sometimes not been updated for long, using obsolete versions of the GUI packages (not all Spins have a dedicated SIG to also ensure maintenance of packages) or coming without further considerations (e.g., how to configure the firewall by default, etc.).
However, if we promote GNOME and KDE on the same level without preference, we might think again to make one workstation that contains both. The need to choose is then imposed on the user anyway.
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My preference is to retain Gnome as the Fedora desktop. If thereâs a Fedora KDE spin and someone wants to promote it more, thatâs fine with me. I have no objection to KDE but I donât want to see it become the desktop for Fedora.
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I am in support of this proposal. I think GNOME is increasingly holding Fedora back, with them often being the last to implement a Wayland standard, or having a completely different approach to solving certain problems compared to all the other DEâs. With KDE Plasma now adopting a biannual release cadence that aligns with Fedora, it should be easier to adopt is as the default.
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As a KDE Plasma user for long time. Hereâs some point I want to make.
- For 720p screens Plasma desktop is just better than Gnome big icons and padding.
- Valveâs bet on Plasma desktop has way more weight. Because they bring more windows users exposed to linux.
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Hey everyone â this is not a poll or a popularity contest.
I appreciate everyoneâs interest in showing support, but we already know that many people have strong preferences for or against different desktop environments.
We also do not need a debate on the technical merits â thatâs not really at issue here.
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So long as this isnât an April fools joke, and without adding too much to the bonfire Iâd like to jump in as another voice against this change.
I donât have anything against KDE and Iâm generally enthusiastic to learn about each release and the progress it continues to make within its own ecosystem. If the KDE project disappeared, I would be sad, and even nostalgic as I did actually prefer it during the Gnome 2.x days. Yes, I was a KDE 1.x user too!
Thereâs going to be a lot of personal preference thatâs going to be brought up in a thread like this, the proposal itself really could be considered that. But I think we can just agree that most of those it-does-this-it-doesnt-do-that points are non-starters. Without getting too close to that line though, we do have to examine some of the motivations as it is baked into the premise of this proposal!
The most important things that gnome gets right are simplicity and innovation of the experience. Emphasis on experience there, and not necessarily the technology.
See, I donât think people who favour KDE here realize, if the goal is to make Fedora as much like Windows so as to be familiar, it ends up eroding some of the value and distinction of Linux in the first place. Why switch if what youâre getting is a poor imitation of something that weâre already describing as âfamiliarâ and âcomfortableâ? To most users, that is going to translate to ânot different enough, stay putâ.
So, letâs call a spade a spade here: The big thing that KDE users like is that it has a start menu, a task bar and lets you have icons on your desktop (by default). This paradigm has been around since Windows 95 but until macOS, Gnome 3 and phone/tablet computing has largely gone unchallenged. It letâs them Linux, but in a Windows flavour that fits the only mental model they are allowing for to organize tasks.
I donât see any definition of innovation - particularly in technology - where anything goes unchallenged for 30+ years. Whether it went stale in the last 10 years or the last 20 years, this way of interacting with systems has been put on notice. Not by gnome, but by Apple with macOS & iOS, Android, ChromeOS, and even Microsoft themselves on two separate occasions - once with their Metro UI and a second time with their very careful tinkering with the Windows 11 taskbar experience.
What KDE is doing with their user experience is a textbook definition of âmarket followerâ. Combined with the way they struggle with margins, borders, typography and icons, and no, objectively they may have some superior tech under the hood, but the experience isnât even enough to compete with what it imitates: Windows.
Innovation in the user experience space is not going to be determined by how much we can emulate. It is by definition how much we can offer to the conversation that hasnât been said already.
Hereâs one example from the Windows PowerToys repo where someone is citing gnome in support of hot corners. This is a huge win for gnome, because what it demonstrates is that the experience they are curating is actually succeededing in increasing peoplesâ productivity.
Another example I like to cite is how the meta key shows workspaces and can trigger the spotlight-style search, all from one keystroke. There are real productiviity gains in these little touches that the gnome team has spent years tuning.
So, gnome is leading - alone in its own way - to counteract the distractions and clutter of the 30+ year old desktop computing formula. I would be more upset if we lost the top billing gnome receives through Fedora because it would cause the share of Linux that Fedora represents to fade into the noise and give Windows a visible lead on desktop experience.
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While your own experience is certainly yours, when weâre talking about making decisions for a whole distro it isnât that simple. I am neurodivergent. My wife is neurodivergent, and it will be no surprise that all three of our children are neurodivergent. I have known a lot of people who were, in retrospect, clearly neurodivergent. I have a lot of experience first- and second- hand with ADHD and beyond. And the most important single lesson Iâve learned is that itâs not safe to generalize about neurodivergent people. They have to be able to define their environment and structure, because nobody else can guess unless they know them personally very well. As a case in point, I hate Gnome. I find Windows less annoying. And the reason is that it it is more relentless about defining the workflow that you âshouldâ have outside of the MacIntosh it aspires to be. I still very much want to do at least one thing the way I did on a long-forgotten Sun windowing system called OpenLook (RIP), which is to double-click on the window bar to maximize only in the vertical direction. I quit using Gnome the day they took that away and made it some kind of registry-like setting. While I do use KDE because it tends to be more consistently available than anything else that is configurable, that doesnât mean itâs ideal. Finding config options is sometimes hard (but much, much better than it was when I used it before the WWW really existed). I also use a version of focus follows mouse that KDE tries to talk me out of (and that is impossible on both Windows and the Mac), but will allow. The only reason I donât worry about KDE is their consistent commitment to configurability since least since the mid-90s by my recollection.
My point is really for the larger discussion, not John whom Iâm replying to for context. ADHD and other such diagnoses are, as clinicians will occasionally let slip, more to make insurance companies happy than accurate descriptions of any given person. The manifestations are far too variable. They are abnormalities and manifest much more individually than something more strongly fixed in the population. Sometimes, mostly on non-technical things, I get some of the âtoo many choicesâ effect John gets, which is the other reason I prefer not to run something incredibly configurable. KDE gets closer out of the box than fvwm or more modern hyperconfigurable WMs (I also would rather not get dependent on more ideosyncratic options than I already am). But I mostly get a âtoo many strong opinionsâ effect instead, probably for no better reason than my affinity for technology is stronger than the âdonât bother me with all thatâ impulse. I prefer things that allow me to target the things I really care about while having the rest default well enough. Thatâs my sweet spot. It may or may not be the sweet spot of any other person.
I strongly suggest you do not try to create a solution for people with ADHD, or ASD, or any other unusual neurology. You donât and canât know enough, and will hurt as many as you help. Give them the ability to make the environmental and workflow choices they need to, including Johnâs preferred choice of âjust do it for me so I donât have toâ as well as those who prefer âI want to write 2000 lines of WM config so itâs perfectâ and everything in between. Probably the best thing is the suggestion to promote KDE from a spin, which I merely tolerate because it is a symptom of the âGnome for everybodyâ prejudice that I decisively rejected before Fedora rose from the ashes of Red Hat LInux. Put it in the installer where it belongs. If you want to feel helpful, you might offer a description of the choices that would include the point that âI hate options, just pick for meâ suggests a different choice than âI want to make it work my way however much work that is.â It would have to be worded better than that, of course. But donât try to choose for anyone neurodivergent. Itâs both foolish and futile. John and I want different things, and Fedora already has them. But making them more discoverable for the newcomer instead of having âWorkstation and the seven dwarvesâ would be a good idea. Donât create a new preferenceâjust eliminate the bias Fedora already has, in a way that helps people to make the best initial guess as to what will suit them.
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Valve also started with Gnome for SteamOS (For Steam Deck), then moved away from it to Kde
Addendum: to me, the most important thing to say about a choice of DE is not how many choices there are, as frankly KDE works fine without making a single one. Itâs how close or far it is from existing skills. Back when my parents used Linux so I could answer questions, the worst idea I had was to give them Gnome because âitâs easier, has more ergonomic defaults.â That meant nothing. What mattered is that nothing was where they expected it from the Windows machines they used for work every day. Gnome was deadly through no fault of its own. Thatâs going to be true for a significant number of the neurodivergent as well. Iâm sure it would raise objections, but probably the best thing would be a choice something like "Gnome/KDE/âHelp me chooseâ. The last lets you say what you care about, including things like âresembles Windows more than the Mac,â as well as âchoose for meâ and stuff like that. Is that feasible? For Fedora, probably not. I doubt it fits terribly well with the âleading, but not quite bleeding edgeâ goal. But since the issue of neurodivergence and accommodation came up, thatâs the only accommodation I can think of that seems likely to work for a large number of people who are picky about their environment and workflow and donât already know what they prefer. And it might work less well for others, though I did suggest hiding all options behind a âhelp me chooseâ door so you donât have to see any of it. But I canât think of anything better from this one particular standpoint.
When in Hindsight a device with a touch screen and app menu catered for that usability would be perfect for Gnome. If you have used a Touch Screen/Slate/ for Creativity ( I own a 16" Huion ) Itâs wonderful to use.
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Instead they thought the time and effort moving away from Gnome was worthwhile.
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For a âDesktopâ the heavy lift was minimal, since you âshouldâ be in Big Picture the whole time. . .
This thread was always going to be moving the goal post advocating one for the other. I still hope this was an April Fools joke.
Iâm seeing a lot of discussion here regarding ease of use, technological advantages, aesthetics, neurodivergent-friendly, etc, and people who are opinionated about these things already have access to both KDE Plasma and GNOME through packages, spins, atomic desktops, etc. Instead, I view a default DE choice as more of a question of which DE best aligns with the mission, goals, and interests of the Fedora project.
I see Fedora as a cutting-edge distro that is bold enough to make controversial decisions like the dropping of the X11 session, as well as being an early adopter of new and often divisive technologies like systemd, pulseaudio, pipewire audio server, etc, and hence I do not see a default DE swap as being too invasive for Fedora.
Furthermore, I see KDE Plasma as being more in the spirit of Fedora, being community-oriented and open to constructive criticism, sentiments I do not associate GNOME with. Hence, I consider KDE Plasma to be more worthy of being the flagship Fedora DE.
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This would be great. With the options available for moulding Plasma into the perfect setup, I have no doubt that with a focused effort on it being the primary/default DE, it would take both Fedora and KDE Plasma to new levels of broader usage and acceptance.
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My suggestion: in the anaconda installer of Workstation, add a section âDesktop Environmentâ.
Provide two options: GNOME and KDE, but chooses GNOME by default. Also list out the strengths of the DEs next to DE screenshots.
Some key phrases for each DE:
GNOME: âSimple and elegantâ, âDefault for Fedora for XX years, flagship DEâ, âExtensible with pluginsâ, âSuitable for keyboard oriented workflowâ, âTouchscreen friendlyâ, âHigh accessibilityâ (not sure about this one), âIf you donât know which to choose, choose this oneââŚ
KDE: âFeature-richâ, âAllows for rich customizationâ, âRAM & CPU friendlyâ, âDefault DE for the Steam Deckâ, âFractional scaling and HDRâ, âWindows-like experience, with taskbar and application menu on bottom-leftâ, âExcellent for power users, but also good for newcomersââŚ
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sadly I think this is an issue you need to discuss with nvidia, EGLStreams are being removed from both GNOME and xwayland.
Either get a newer GPU or start using nouveau.