I think that an IRC-first future with the option of Matrix for those with a distaste for IRC is the best path forward, but I wouldn’t mind going Matrix-first as long as an option for IRC still exists.
I think that for most “work-related” or “official” channels like #fedora-devel we do need to have bridging setup. But for more user-level interactions, like generic chat for socializing and support we can have Matrix channel without its IRC part. Thus I like the idea of a “Lobby” or “Welcome” area as Matthew described here: Matrix server channel setup - #7 by mattdm
I would also consider not bridging #fedora channel from IRC to Matrix as it is a high-traffic communication without shared context and it might benefit from horizontal scaling.
Personally, I don’t have a big problem with either since both are open platforms with some degree of federation; I use both daily through WeeChat and Gomuks. However, I do have a preference for IRC for a number of reasons:
Given that so many other projects are on IRC, it makes sense to not require people to use a different client just for a few select communities.
Many people, including myself, prefer TUI clients to graphical ones. Right now, the only TUI Matrix client that isn’t missing essential features is Gomuks. While Gomuks development seems to be progressing well, I wouldn’t say it’s a replacement for other graphical clients yet.
Issues with Matrix itself: I described these in a bit more detail in a blog post, “Keeping Platforms Open”. Keeping platforms open - Seirdy.
Regarding features in Matrix that aren’t present in IRC:
Long-form and long-term discussion already happens in a mailing list, which is well-suited for the task; I’m not aware of any other open platform that allows nested discussion threads delimited by subject. Given the existence of a mailing list, I think a chat platform should focus on a niche that isn’t covered by mailing lists: ephemeral, real-time chat with less structure.
If a discussion needs marked replies and searchable history, it’s probably better off happening in a mailing list. Given that these features aren’t especially valuable given the existence of a mailing list, I’d say that IRC should fit the bill.
Honestly, I don’t think a Matrix-IRC bridge hurts the Matrix experience too much since join/leave events can simply be filtered out from most clients. Most of the issues come from the perspective of IRC users, mainly long-form messages turning into pastebin links instead of being broken up. That being said, I find excessive pastebin links preferable to not having IRC support at all.
Running of the Telegram-Matrix gate will cause us a lot of spam in bridged channels, because most of Telegram channels uses special anti-spam bots on their side, and due to the Telegram Bot API limitations, one bot can’t see the changes made by another. That’s why Matrix Gatekeeper Bot will see these deleted spam messages forever.
Replies show up fine on the IRC end; they render like this:
<nick "quote"> reply
What I was trying to say is that bridges don’t really annoy Matrix users
too much; they’re mostly an annoyance for IRC users. But being annoyed
is better than being shut out, so I’d prefer bridging.
As for the recent Freenode retaliation, these are two Fediverse threads
on the issue:
This is a hostile takeover by the former Freenode admins who moved to libera.chat. Just because you get a new boss doesn’t mean you have to quit and start a rival company without the new boss even doing anything. The channel “takeovers” are in response to channel owners abandoning their channels and telling people to go to a rival IRC network in the topic.
All the libera.chat network will accomplish is a dilution and fragmentation of the free and open software community that has seen too much fragmentation as it is. I will not move to libera.chat and instead will cease providing help and support in Fedora IRC. If the goal was to kill free and open software IRC, the libera folks have done one heck of a job.
So… previously, freenode was not a company and didn’t have a “boss” in the sense that it apparently does now. I think it’s entirely appropriate for us, as a volunteer-driven project, to follow the volunteers — with whom we’ve had a good working relationship with and depended on for decades — to where they decide to go.
We’re not alone in that — Gentoo, Ubuntu, Arch, FOSDEM, and many other projects small and large are moving. From a purely pragmatic point of view, moving seems less likely to split things than staying does. If you’re interested in helping Fedora users in our official channels, I welcome you to reconsider.
As a project, our name is important to us. It seems reasonable to make it easy to find where our official home is. I expect that’s true of all of these other projects as well, and casting that as “abandoning” and stuff about “rival networks” shouldn’t really apply. If new Freenode really wants to help users, it should welcome those signposts to other networks where appropriate.
If everyone jumped off a bridge would you as well? Freenode is the place to get Fedora tech support. If you put in the topic that you’re moving to a rival network, the channel will be taken from the current owners because they have effectively abandoned it.
Libera.chat has been spamming the channels I’m in not just on Freenode, but on Rizon as well. Some of this spam is likely to be false flag, but at least a portion of it appears to be legitimate.
You can move the official channel to a rival, upstart, usurper network, but this is a bad precedent. Think of all the web sites which will no longer be correct, forever directing users to an abandoned Freenode channel. What happens when the “volunteers” inevitably rebel against the libera.chat owner? Do we move again? At what point do we stop rewarding betrayal and schism?
Like I said I won’t be moving, and if #fedora/Freenode is shut down I’ll just close the window. I end up helping an order of magnitude more than I need help, in any case.
that’s the most likely question people ask, if such decisions are done or being discussed. Freenode has been the place for Fedora tech. But now it’s time moving forward.
It’s okay and personally I respect that you’re not moving. But as well I expect from you that you have to respect that many of us will move to libera.chat!
Uh? Previously when? It always has been, since PDPC existed and at least until the founder died. Then PDPC assets were transferred to another entity by a board member, who eventually transferred the entity to another entity. But the problem has been the same for 20 years, a bus factor of 1.
seems to apply. I trust the Fedora IRC ops team in making this decision.
As for “Freenode is the place to get Fedora tech support.” … that seems like important value the Fedora brand is lending to Freenode, but it’s not a commitment we have made or contract we’ve signed. Our plan already is to steer people to Ask Fedora and new help channels on our upcoming own Matrix server.
Yep and the plan is good to be done. At this point I can say that first I was against the move to libera.chat and watnted to use freenode or only Matrix. But joining and reading discussions I have adjsted my opinion and I don’t regret it.
Maybe @rdr - just take your time and reflect about the hot iron IRC.
PDPC was a charity, though, chartered “to help peer-directed project communities flourish”. If you want to consider that a company, well, my point isn’t to argue semantics, so, sure. In fact, if some new boss came into my company and that caused my job to stop being fun, I’d probably quit too – and I very well might stay working in the areas I enjoy. So actually I’m pretty sympathetic from that angle too!
You’re right about the bus factor problem, though. It’ll be important to see how things go with Libera Chat and their new non-profit organization.
Then you really are abandoning the channel and Freenode admins are well within their rights to assign it to someone else. This type of scorched earth hysteria over the Freenode owner allegedly being a Trump supporter is immature and bigoted.
The only other reference to Trump in this thread is not a claim about Lee, but rather hyperbole about Facebook and a statement in defense of IRC in general. I probably should not have let that slide, but in any case it isn’t what you’re claiming, and the post you’re replying to said nothing of the sort and is entirely unrelated. This is not a helpful addition to the conversation.
This thread will not slide into personal attacks or an argument about unrelated politics.
