@ngompa filed Fedora-Council/tickets ticket #504. Discuss here and record votes and decisions in the ticket.
16 Likes
As a KDE user, I am +1 to having an official KDE Edition side-by-side with the GNOME. Outright replacing GNOME seems to invite dissent on whatever grounds, but having choice is a solid step in the right direction IMO.
16 Likes
Personally, I use neither Gnome nor KDE (but sway), so I have no bias and wouldnāt mind having both on equal footing (in the past I even suggested a naming scheme to reflect that), if it werenāt for that kindergarten move of āweāll try to replace Gnome unless you make us an edition on equal termsā. That proposal broke quite a bit of porcelain, so to say. Withdrawing it in advance could help improving that impression.
That being said, making a spin an edition is no magic stick. It does not make a spin āedition qualityā, and being named a spin does not keep a spin from being āedition qualityā. Note that Iām making no statement about KDEās quality here. My point is that too much is being made out of this, at the expense of unnecessary collateral damage.
3 Likes
I donāt love the last sentence of this ticket, and it might have been better to say that as a result of the discussion and feedback that was generated by the original change proposal, requesting Fedora KDE be promoted to an Edition felt like a good next step and withdraw it, as was also suggested, because the change proposal doesnāt guarantee any change to Fedora until it has gone through the entire process and been approved by FESCo, and this proposal is still at the āannounceā stage.
But overall, I donāt see an issue with this request to grant Edition status for Fedora KDE if it meets Edition requirements. I agree with David that having choice is the best way forward and surely a better experience for people both in the project a long time and newer contributors.
Iām leaning to a +1 based on technical merit of the KDE SIG, their consistency in responding & resolving bugs and issues, and the sentiment I observed in the initial discussion that, despite it being contentious at times, is a lot of people did actually want KDE as their desktop. Iām not a KDE user, I use Gnome and will continue to be a Gnome user, but I have no problem with having a choice be available to our community.
10 Likes
Huh? Thereās nothing wrong with making proposals/requests in multiple areas.
I think we should take each proposal for what it is. The other proposal (KDE in workstation) shouldnāt affect this request to promote KDE to an edition. I do agree with Aoife regarding the last sentence though.
Nothing is wrong with keeping the other proposal open per-se, but it shouldnāt really be something we have to mention in this request IMO.
Iām not on the council, so my view doesnāt really change much, but Iād be a +1 on this if I were.
2 Likes
I did not want to say that because that wasnāt quite what happened. This came directly out of a few in-person conversations with Council folks at Flock.
The reason I mentioned it is because I was repeatedly asked to withdraw the Change (that I notably was not part of) and nobody wanted to do so without an alternative executed in place. This is a sufficient alternative to withdraw that Change for.
4 Likes
+1 for Fedora KDE Plasma Desktop Edition
I am Fedora GNOME user and will continue to use it, but I would like to see Fedora KDE on the same level as Fedora Workstation because it is the second largest DE in Linux, so putting it as a spin is a huge disservice to it.
I know many users who love Fedora and KDE, but they choose KDE Neon because it is more prominent and they fear that Fedora KDE wonāt get the same attention as the workstation.
8 Likes
Ah ok, I understand. I actually had āmy 2cā written and deleted it. My comment was from the point of view of the change being announced in April, the discussion on here that happened, and now this ticket. I didnāt and donāt have full context so I should have been more specific that this was just my take.
I still donāt love how itās worded though 
but that doesnāt and shouldnāt take away from the fact that this is an Edition Promotion request fundamentally, and should be weighted against the projects requirements around that. So for me, Iām still of the opinion that this is +1.
1 Like
I think they kind of felt backed into that corner by our existing policy, which says thereās only room for one Edition in a particular broad use-case or user-base (like ādesktopā). There were several previous attempts to get a KDE edition by defining a more narrow segment, but those always felt a little bit likeā¦ the same proposal with eyeglasses and a fake mustache. So I can see why the proposers thought this was the only way.
This is what I asked for immediately when that Change was filed ā I donāt think the Change Process is the right venue for the overall decision. (I also asked for the KDE team to discuss with the Workstation Working Group, in hopes that some collaborative solution could be found at that level.)
So, I think this request appropriate. It would require us to explicitly make an exception to the existing policy (or to change it entirely).
Personally, Iām in favor of a limited exception (one ā two) for the desktop use case. Itās a big segment for us. The KDE team have been active and engaged, bringing together our community with the upstream.
I also think it doesnāt have to be a zero-sum game ā there is plenty of room to expand Fedora usage on the desktop generally.
I do still have concerns about presenting this in a clear way to potential new users (and to journalists and youtubers and all the rest). And, about documentation, support, and so on. But I donāt think those are insurmountable.
14 Likes
I use the Mate spin. If the Fedora project has limited manpower, I would rather see more spins or more attention to the current spins than sacrificing the current spins to elevate a particular spin to an āeditionā. Considering that RH develops gnome, that RHEL supports only gnome, and that RHEL forks from Fedora, petitioning Fedora to switch from gnome to KDE to pressure RHEL to restore KDE support might be counter productive.
1 Like
Edition on the face means we will also require blocking criteria, which means more criteria for Apps and Core Desktop Functionalities be tested rigorously. In the recent times, QA has thoughts if we should simply enable folks to call them āeditionsā if they participate in testing and fixing bugs in time for the release. This is true for newer things like a11y, ie QA doesnāt have anyone who will be able to test for a11y dedicatedly but can surely help from time to time and in return expect the features and tools to be functional (according to the blocking criteria).
I am overall +1 to have KDE as edition, if the following holds true:
- KDE comes with a list of apps they consider default and define a scope of basic functionality. They can choose to derive inspiration for GNOMEās basic functionality and seek refs from the default apps.
- Help find and fix bugs and mostly ensure they donāt stall the release process.
- Hold regular test days to enable more and more community participation. KDE enough though not an edition (today) has been phenomenally active with test days and I think this is my biggest āwhyā this should be promoted.
Adamw and Kamil can give more context from policy and automationā¦ if this moves along.
7 Likes
I think the difference between the KDE spin and something like the Mate spin and other spins (Iām personally in the very early process of working on the COSMIC spin) is the level of support and effort put into the KDE spin makes it a contender for āEdition Qualityā in my mind.
You mention Red Hat developing on GNOME, I think the level of quality/support behind it is what separates GNOME from something like the Mate, COSMIC, Sway, etc. etc. spin. I believe the KDE spin has the quality needed to consider the edition status.
4 Likes
Let me go through these one at a time.
distinct
Fedora Workstation is geared toward developers.
Fedora KDE Desktop is being promoted as a desktop, for regular end users. If developers want to use it, thatās great, but thatās not the target audience.
relevant
Iāll be honest, Iām not positive about this one. But we are certainly talking about something that is active, current, and making forward strides in their field.
user-base that a Fedora Edition is not currently serving
If we look at the F40 usage statistics, we see that the KDE Spin has more users than any edition except Workstation. I find it incredible that people do not see that there is a very large userbase that the current Fedora Editions are not serving.
Iām not against making an exception for the Fedora KDE Desktop Edition. But in my opinion, it shouldnāt need one.
1 Like
I donāt particularly want to make this argument because there are problems with it. We do actively work toward improving the Fedora KDE experience for developers too, so I would not want to say thatās not part of our goal. We target basic users, content creators, working professionals, and software developers.
As it is @mattdm already told me that weād get an exception (similar to the one we already have for ānon-edition release blockingā we have now). I made the Personal Systems Working Group to satisfy the requirements for a WG to own an Edition.
9 Likes
Fedora KDE works really well. Since the welcome screen is there, afaik it is on par with the GNOME Edition.
Absolutely in favor.
@tdawson the KDE Edition still has way less users. It is the only general-purpose variant of Fedora that is as well maintained, so this only makes sense.
This will give it the chance to be equally popular! There is a big gap here, so I would interprete that graph the other way around.
I am also not completely sure why developers would need to use GNOME.
2 Likes
To be fair though, Workstation is alot more visible on the websiteā¦ Iām not saying that KDE is bigger or anything, but gnome, right now, is alot more accessible.
1 Like
Yup, which I would say is 100% the reason why GNOME has so many more users.
So saying āKDE already has so many usersā is misleading. It has so little users, even though being kinda 1:1 on GNOME regarding UX.
KDE and Steam already chose Arch for their flagship OSsesā¦ but still, I find Fedora Kinoite the best version of KDE there is.
Waitā¦ what?
Wasnāt KDE Neon Ubuntu LTS based? Did they change base?
Yup, the Ubuntu LTS + modern stuff + KDE Plasma Frankenstein doesnt really work well.
There are plans (and a prototype!) on a new image-based KDE OS based on Arch.
They had an Akademy talk, but didnt process the videos at all. No cutting, no readable slide overlays.
I saw it in a Brodie Robertson Video tbh
1 Like
+1 to this.
The efforts put into making the KDE Desktop Spin as polished as it is right now should be given visibility with its status upgrade. This also helps us evaluate the KDE Desktop Spin at a similar level as we do Workstation, thereby helping to maintain the quality like @sumantrom mentioned.
3 Likes