What happened to all the posts from the old Askbot-based Ask Fedora site in 2019?

[ankursinha]

@downey

This is the #site-feedback category, so my reply to the topic continued the feedback about the site. My question had already been answered on the old site, so no, I’m not going to ask it again. I just wanted to be able to get to my answer that was already there.

FranciscoD:

I meant about the query that lead you to run into a 404—not a new query about the old forum

@downey

In other words, there were limitations that weren’t dealt with. How exactly is that not lack of planning before executing the transition?

FranciscoD:

The limitations have been outlined in this and other discussions about the move. Please suggest your solutions as to how these limitations could be dealt with—we’re always looking to improve.

@downey

Forcing people to ask new questions, and wait for resposnes, rather than have access to the knowledge already created is presumptuous and rude, as seems to be the tone in all of your replies to the constructive criticism offered here.

I recommend you read the code of conduct again, and question yourself as to whether you are trying to “be excellent to each other” here.

@downey

People need to solve problems quickly and not wait around, and the tools for them to solve those questions are on the old site that is quickly being wiped off the face of the Internet.

FranciscoD:

But lots of people are quite happy to wait around, engage with others, and solve their problems. Maybe we’re projecting our requirements on to others in general?

@downey

“Important” as judged by whom? And by what process?

FranciscoD:

By the metrics that were possible to gather from askbot—which weren’t many. There’s another limitation we worked with. Can you suggest a solution please?

@downey

Maybe, maybe not. That doesn’t reduce the usefulness of having the old material. In my case, once I was able to dig up my answer on the old site, I just had to edit the kernel version and it worked. Again, such a presumptious attitude suggests poor planning and lack of understand of the use cases for people looking for content on Ask Fedora.

FranciscoD:

Maybe, maybe not works both ways. While it has worked for you here, it wouldn’t in a lot of cases. Given the development pace of Fedora, it is more likely that information on previous releases will not apply to newer ones.

Let’s be clear about this—you questioning the attitude of people that spent hours and hours planning and working on this move is not acceptable. Please read the code of conduct and learn to be more understanding of other’s efforts.

Why, if our work is so below your standards, you are quite welcome to set up a new forum and help people out that way. The Fedora communtiy welcomes users helping others, in whatever way they see fit.

@downey

Again, this is the #site-feedback category. Asking new questions aren’t on topic in this category.

Again, a question on the query that you were looking for an answer to—not a documentation of your personal frustrations.

[ankursinha]

@downey

This is absolutely, 100%, without a doubt, what must be done, and fast. Host Discourse on a dedicated system somewhere if necessary to get it done.

Let’s come back to this. On the initial setup:

• somewhere? Where?
• who will provide the hardware for this hosting?
• who will provide the manpower for the initial setup of the system, and Discourse deployment?

On the migration of data:

• who will extract a datadump from askbot? (also hosted by askbot for us)
• who will clean and pre-process it to make it fit for importing into Discourse?
• who will figure out how it will be imported into Discourse?
• who will figure out if the data needs to be anonymised?
• will the users and their karma also be imported? How so?
• will these users be connected to users on discourse? Can they be?

When that is done:

• who will provide the manpower for constant maintenance of this hosting?
• who will ensure the security of this instance?

The overarching questions:

• who will finance all of this?

and:

• all the resources that go in here: can they be used better elsewhere?

[ankursinha]

Well, I’ve tried to set up “/en” to redirect to “askbot.fp.o/en”, but I’m not sure if it works. It’s all that we can do from the admin panel.

We have contacted discourse about one or two things already like modifying the 404 page to mention askbot.fp.o, but there’s not much that can be done on the current plan (which is limited by the finances of the community budget).

Hence, “limitations”.

[ankursinha]

@FranciscoD

Well, I’ve tried to set up “/en” to redirect to “askbot.fp.o/en”, but I’m not sure if it works. It’s all that we can do from the admin panel.

This doesn’t seem to work.

@FranciscoD

the 404 page

This has a better message now, mentioning askbot.

[fasulia]

@FranciscoD

We have 40+ channels on IRC, many of which are bridged now to Telegram. We have an equal if not more number of mailing lists (powered by hyperkitty so one can use the web application to participate). We have presence on Social media where people ask queries. At the end, we also have fedoraforum and Askfedora along with the many regional support web-applications. All of these have dedicated channels for Q&A that users can use.

I was unaware of all but Askfedora and fedoraforum. I didn’t even realize the latter is an official part of Fedora.

I doubt I’m an exception in my level of awareness of Fedora resources.

@FranciscoD

If anything, we struggle because we constantly try to have channels everywhere and that spreads us rather thin.

Perhaps you realize the problem then.

Would it not be more effective and efficient to have fewer but more populated resource channels? Over-specialization of resources creates silos and lower levels of activity in each and in total. Especially when they do not attain a critical mass, which becomes more difficult.

@FranciscoD

So, pardon me but I don’t understand where the impression that we’re downlplaying it comes from.

Is the number of posts and threads asking about the disappearance of the old askfedora posts not an indication? Surely you must be tired of repeating yourself.

@FranciscoD

But lots of people are quite happy to wait around, engage with others, and solve their problems. Maybe we’re projecting our requirements on to others in general?

Oh the irony.

But this is a good opportunity to use the wonderful polling feature of Discourse. https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/how-do-you-prefer-to-use-ask-fedora/70880?u=fasulia

[ankursinha]

@fasulia

Perhaps you realize the problem then.

Would it not be more effective and efficient to have fewer but more populated resource channels? Over-specialization of resources creates silos and lower levels of activity in each and in total. Especially when they do not attain a critical mass, which becomes more difficult.

I do—most of us do, but let me try to explain the nature the issue. Have you ever wondered why there are thousands of Linux distributions instead of a few that the Free software community focuses their efdorts on?

It is a feature of a volunteer based community where everyone is allowed, encouraged rather, to do things their own way. You get people to join you not by an order, but by convincing them to put aside their pet project to spend time on yours. So while you will have a a large proportion doing the popular thing, you will always have small pockets doing their own thing.

@fasulia

Is the number of posts and threads asking about the disappearance of the old askfedora posts not an indication? Surely you must be tired of repeating yourself

It is small compared to the number of posts not on this subject. Even you can see that.

I take the trouble of repeating myself try to convince people of our plan (as explained above convincing is half the job), and hoping that itll also convince them to turn into volunteers.

@fasulia

Oh the irony.

It not ironic. You do realise that we admins have access to usage metrics for this platform? There are now about 600 users here, and on then outside maybe 30 have spent their time discussing this?

@fasulia

But this is a good opportunity to use the wonderful polling feature of Discourse.

To what end though? I’ve listed the limitations we are working within—will a poll make them go away?

The only thing that may help is more users joining the community and volunteering with tasks and projects, i.e., increasing the man power we have at our disposal.

[ankursinha]

@fasulia

I was unaware of all but Askfedora and fedoraforum. I didn’t even realize the latter is an official part of Fedora.

Forgot to link to this: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicating_and_getting_help

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Telegram

It’s linked in the “Get help” bit in the footer of the website too. Perhaps a new topic on how its visibility can be improved would be worth a discussion?

[crispinb (Ex member)]

@fasulia

But this is a good opportunity to use the wonderful polling feature of Discourse

You’re beating a dead horse - (distinctly authoritarian) minds have been made up.

[ankursinha]

That is not a helpful comment, and you are not being excellent to us when you say that. Can you at least try? You said youd try to be productive—is that productive?

How about going through the list of limitations and suggesting solutions instead of calling us names?? Suggest one solution?

[crispinb (Ex member)]

Every time anyone suggests anything, you instruct them re why they are wrong and then quote the code of conduct at them. You mistake ‘being excellent’ with ‘being polite’: you politely dismiss and put the hard word on anyone who demurs. From your tone here I really don’t see how it would be possible to be productive here other than by being entirely obedient.

[ankursinha]

Please, list these suggestions and we’ll go through them together again. (If you can quote users so the summary is easily followable, that’ll be excellent)

[fasulia]

@FranciscoD

Have you ever wondered why there are thousands of Linux distributions instead of a few that the Free software community focuses their efdorts on?

Freedom of choice is a wonderful thing. Do note, however, how few of them gain any significant traction or even awareness. Quantity vs quality. How do you wish to use your limited resources?

@FranciscoD

You do realise that we admins have access to usage metrics for this platform? There are now about 600 users here, and on then outside maybe 30 have spent their time discussing this?

@FranciscoD

But this is a good opportunity to use the wonderful polling feature of Discourse.

To what end though?

Clarity. Who knows, maybe we’d learn something concrete. Data (and any bias in its collection) and metrics would be very interesting to discuss. And it would make it easier to justify decisions.

Regardless of popular opinion though, I strain to understand how tech people in the free and open source community would find it at all acceptable to break links and lose data. If it were simply stated that resources and technical limitations unfortunately did not allow it, fine. But to justify it beyond this is incomprehensible to me.

@FranciscoD

Perhaps a new topic on how its visibility can be improved would be worth a discussion?

Definitely.

@FranciscoD

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicating_and_getting_help

The length of that list is stunning and again it raises the issue of fragmentation. Plus, personally I try to minimize the number of accounts I have to create. Each new account or login is another barrier to participation.

As a side note, I do wish there were better resources for SELinux help (not just developer discussion or mailing list). This topic is relevant to Fedora and beyond, yet questions on the subject don’t get much attention.

[ankursinha]

@fasulia

Freedom of choice is a wonderful thing. Do note, however, how few of them gain any significant traction or even awareness. Quantity vs quality. How do you wish to use your limited resources?

So we’re in agreement then.

I use my limited resources where I see fit—but, everyone uses their resources where they see fit which is not necessarily on the same project. It’s a personal decision that everyone makes themselves.

So, what does one do in such a situation? We convince people to work on our projects—we convince some, we dont convince some.

@fasulia

Regardless of popular opinion though, I strain to understand how tech people in the free and open source community would find it at all acceptable to break links and lose data. If it were simply stated that resources and technical limitations unfortunately did not allow it, fine. But to justify it beyond this is incomprehensible to me.

This has me a bit confused. I don’t think I’ve understood your meaning properly here:

So, it’s OK that we had to move instead of migrate (we discussed it in these terms while planning it out too) because of the limited resources, but the problem is the act of us saying “this is all we could do with our resources, the links are going to break so please use the new platform afresh” (justifying it as such)?

@fasulia

The length of that list is stunning and again it raises the issue of fragmentation. Plus, personally I try to minimize the number of accounts I have to create. Each new account or login is another barrier to participation.

FAS is all one needs with any fedora infrastructure application: https://apps.fedoraproject.org.

I’ve seen fragmentation throughtout my time in FOSS, and not been able to find a solution other than the one I’ve already stated: convincing people to put their resources in my idea instead of their pet projects. If you have other suggestions, I guarantee that lots of FOSS volunteers will be be all ears.

@fasulia

As a side note, I do wish there were better resources for SELinux help (not just developer discussion or mailing list). This topic is relevant to Fedora and beyond, yet questions on the subject don’t get much attention.

Please open a new topic. Unfortunately selinux has built a reputation of being “difficult to understand”, but there are a few resources that we can list in one place.

[alciregi (Alessio)]

Please please.
I would like to say, and you should already know, that when there is a change, when something start to work differently from the past, many people pops in saying: “it was better as it was before”. That’s fine, and that’s expected.

Said that, Fedora is not a business company. You can say there is RH behind the scenes, and blah blah and so on. Fedora is a community driven project; many people are volunteers and participate in their spare time. Someone is more involved, someone is less. Like in any FOSS project. What I think is that no one should feel obliged to provide help. And no one should pretend that. Too many times people like to be end users interacting with a supplier.
But we are a community, we collaborate, people need help and people is happy to give assistance. But what I mean is: this is not a work. If someone is happy to help people, he is not obliged to do so: he does it because he is rewarded by satisfaction.

Talking about fragmentation of communication and help platforms: you know, many people don’t like forums or any web platform (for instance I’ve never been an Askbot fan), many people prefer the plain old mailing lists (email), and nowadays many people like to use instant messaging (like Telegram) to get help. Everyone chose and look for help wherever he feels better.
At the same time, if there is a lack of people or resources that maintain or take care of a platform, it is better to shut down, and focus forces to something else. I think that who follows and maintain a project has the right to chose which is better to accomplish their goal, also the right to chose to change a platform, while doing their best for the users. Doing our best sometimes is not the best. Many people will disagree, many people will not be happy.

For instance I think that many issues on Askbot are outdated. People could help in identifying the questions with the solutions that are still valid regardless of the Fedora release, the common issues, the common questions, and add them to the list of commonly asked questions or also contribute to the Fedora Docs Project.

In the end, as stated somewhere else, the goal of this new platform is not a simple questions&answers platform. The choice of Discourse was also driven by the wish to involve people in the community. To teach and to learn something about how the community works. As said before, no one likes to work in an helpdesk department. We share experiences, points of view. People can learn how to submit a bug, instead of waiting that someone else does that in their behalf. We can learn new commands and new tools while troubleshooting our issues.

[downey (Michael Downey)]

@crispinb

From your tone here I really don’t see how it would be possible to be productive here other than by being entirely obedient.

Yeah, agreed. I’ve been a big supporter of Fedora for many years, but this guy’s consistent condescending attitude toward constructive feedback (not just here but on every blog post and discussion topic about the change) and insistence on deleting years and years worth of knowledge from the Web … yeah, I’m moving to Debian.

[fasulia]

@FranciscoD

This has me a bit confused. I don’t think I’ve understood your meaning properly here:

So, it’s OK that we had to move instead of migrate (we discussed it in these terms while planning it out too) because of the limited resources, but the problem is the act of us saying “this is all we could do with our resources, the links are going to break so please use the new platform afresh” (justifying it as such)?

The problem is in somehow not understanding the value of not breaking links, and not losing data.

When people have raised concerns about this, the response has been to minimize the value of the data (some info might be outdate… sure some, but what about the rest??), an apparent lack of forethought into the consequences of the move (broken links all over the internet, bookmarks), and either an assumption or insistence on how people do/should get help (be happy to repost and wait and discuss). These are all matters of attitude and prioritization, not necessarily resource or technical feasibility.

I’m running out of ways to phrase the frustration…

If the issue is resources or technical limitations, these could be put as challenges to the community to find solutions. It’s not clear to me that either of these are insurmountable, but if that is truly the case, surely most would be understanding. At the very least there would be warning and transparency in the matter.

@alciregi

Fedora is not a business company.

Let’s not confuse quantity of resources with quality of decisions. One has little to do with the other. This is really no excuse.

[fasulia]

@downey

From your tone here I really don’t see how it would be possible to be productive here other than by being entirely obedient.

Yeah, agreed. I’ve been a big supporter of Fedora for many years, but this guy’s consistent condescending attitude toward constructive feedback (not just here but on every blog post and discussion topic about the change) and insistence on deleting years and years worth of knowledge from the Web … yeah, I’m moving to Debian.

@FranciscoD Examples of reactions to ideology.

@downey I get the frustration, but does one person’s view determine your choice of OS? https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/what-do-you-look-for-in-your-os/1260

[ankursinha]

@fasulia

@FranciscoD Examples of reactions to ideology.

The solution being to drop the ideology?

[ankursinha]

@downey

Yeah, agreed. I’ve been a big supporter of Fedora for many years, but this guy’s consistent condescending attitude toward constructive feedback (not just here but on every blog post and discussion topic about the change) and insistence on deleting years and years worth of knowledge from the Web … yeah, I’m moving to Debian.

Thank you for your constructive feedback. Given our lack of technical expertise, as youve pointed out in your previous comment, will you be kind enough to please list the steps we should take one by one?

[ankursinha]

@crispinb

Every time anyone suggests anything, you instruct them re why they are wrong and then quote the code of conduct at them. You mistake ‘being excellent’ with ‘being polite’: you politely dismiss and put the hard word on anyone who demurs. From your tone here I really don’t see how it would be possible to be productive here other than by being entirely obedient.

Everyone is still waiting for your suggestions here. I may be dismissive, but others in the team arent.

It takes only 2 minutes to write a comment, while it takes hours and days to really think of solutions to problems and help implement them.