The Fragmentation of Linux and the Solution

The Water Cooler
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My internet stopped working on Fedora 41 even though it works fine on Windows. A good reason why you always have a copy of MS on hand. I keep Linux on an SSD plugged into a PCIe slot. After about 3+ hours trying to upgrade the kernel to the newest version (6.12.6) I borked my OS. Apparently Fedora doesn’t have use the latest kernel for some reason. After a fresh install of 41, the internet still doesn’t work. So all I can do now is wait for 42 to be released.

When Linux has become less reliable than Windows, there’s not any appeal anymore. Unless I want to give myself a challenge. I seems to me that Linux is only good for managing servers and SBC’s. Is this because it’s so fragmented?

Static packages may be the solution to this. One area that could benefit from this, is the Hardware. When newcomers switch to Linux, aside from running into problems like I just have, they’re going to want to use the same GUI style software for their equipment. The apps that were made by the brands themselves. This includes devices such as keyboards, Mice, Microphones, ARGB. Even the VR headsets with their Haptic Gloves and Vests. But Linux is too fragmented for Hardware makers. Their firmware would need to be compiled in each distribution, which adds to the number of bugs that need to be resolved. This, and that Linux users are only a small percentage of their customers doesn’t make it worthwhile.

But firmware can be pre-compiled binaries, installed in sandboxes. A user can click on an app, which will access the firmware installed in flatpak or snap. New users won’t even have to touch the CLT, unless an issue needs to be resolved.

This is more of a request, to encourage companies and Linux devs to make more (Non-dynamic) .exe style programs. That is to say, software with all the packages it needs, self-contained within a single file. Perhaps this will help fix the fragmentation problem of Linux. Dynamic packages (Shared Libraries) save a lot of space. But now with 1TB SSD’s for a $100 AUD, its not much of an issue anymore. Soon, 32TB HDD’s will be available. Personally, I would much prefer the reliability over storage space.

Additionally, I need a wiki of all the static packages for hardware peripherals. It doesn’t help that any discussion about Hardware is forbidden, even if it’s just to find out what works.

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Ah yes. There was another forum post on this topic.

https://linuxmusicians.com/viewtopic.php?t=24881

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Welcome to the forums @cluelessowlman

Placing hardware drivers in containers (flatpak or otherwise) would likely not be desirable. The goal behind containers is the opposite: to abstract the hardware from the software. The described scenario would require containers to have full access to the underlying hardware, this would be a security concern and mostly defeat the purpose of using containers.

To distribute drivers manufacturers can provide a standard binary, since the linux kernel already has a unified approach to loading modules/drivers. It would be even better if all manufacturers provide open source drivers, if necessary with the addition of a binary firmware companion that is sideloaded.

Considering your internet issues, perhaps you would like to open a separate thread for that on the forums so that people can assist you in getting it to work again?

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There are issues for some users with the 6.12 kernel series at the moment.

If you boot to the previous 6.11 then you should have a working system again.

We would be happy to work with you to help investigate the issues you encountered. It is often specific to the particular mix of hardware you have.

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Thanks, but I need to give Fedora a break for the time being.
I was using A.I to guide me.

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Out of curiosity, what “AI” were you using as a guide and why? I can’t think of any chatbots that I would trust to guide me through debugging a problem with my Linux installation, so I’m curious to know if there’s something good out there.

I wonder if a more ‘stable’ distribution would be preferable to Fedora for your use case.

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To much of the AI training data is from untrustworthy sources.

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https://www.perplexity.ai/

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Instead of just giving up on Fedora, especially when you consider the fact that almost nobody else has reported this issue. And, consider the fact that something like this would have blocked F 41 from being released until it was solved.

Better, of course, would be to let us help you find out what’s wrong and get it fixed. First, if you’re still interested in getting Fedora 41 working properly when on line, tell us what happens when you try to use the Internet with it. Second, open up a terminal and enter this command:
ping mit.edu

If that doesn’t work, or reports Host Unreachable, try this:

ping 23.5.146.146

and report back. If that works, but the first command doesn’t, you have a DNS issue. If neither works, this comes next:


`traceroute 23.5.146.146`

This will tell us how far your attempt to ping that host got, before failing. BTW, the ping commands will work just as well in a Windows terminal, and the last one will too if you use tracert as the command. If I don’t hear back, I’ll understand that you’re no longer interested in troubleshooting and not bother you on this subject again.

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Mait,

I have been a Fedora ONLY user for more than a decade and each release usually improves upon the last. Since Linux can run on just about anything, certain combinations of hardware and software may clash. Reverting to a prior kernel is an excellent temporary solution to such a situation.

However, unless a bug report is filed, a problem may persist for a very long time.

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:face_with_spiral_eyes:
Here’s the thing. I speak as someone whose experience with computers goes back to days of the S-100 bus. Currently, I have boxes running Debian, Fedora, Windows 11, and Mac OS.

(This and USD $2 gets me a cup of coffee at any US convenience store.)

All operating systems have some degree of “suck.” For instance, in some earlier versions of Mac OS, Multifinder would let you crash in more than one application at a time. Tech support had a time where you could actually get a software engineer on the phone about your problem – even if the conversation ran something like this:

“Your software crashes when I edit text.”

“Don’t edit text.”

“But this is word processing software!”

and so on.

These days, troubleshooting is much, much less hassle. Forums like this exist. People generally, if you ask politely, will help you solve problems. There’s any number of people out on YouTube trying to make a buck making videos on how to troubleshoot this, or fix that.

That’s why your comments both annoyed and inspired me to take a few minutes to post.

Here is my $0.02 of advice: If you don’t want to play with OS software, find an OS which doesn’t require as much updating. If like me, you view OS software as a hobby, stick with a Fedora spin. Maybe you don’t like GNOME or KDE. Fine, other window manager spins of Fedora exist, and you can run them from a flash drive. If you don’t like that, find a Debian spin which updates periodically to catch security fixes.

The boxes I have running Linux, both Fedora and Debian, were pulled off the junk pile. They are seven to ten years old (4th to 7th generation Intel Core processors), and with Linux, perform rather snappy. I respectfully suggest you remember a saying Dad pounded into me years ago.

“Bad workmen blame their tools.”

I wish you well, and hope you solve your computer problems.

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Mait, I dumped M$ Windows, of all flavors, since 1990 … once I found a far better alternative, Unix in this case, Linux since 1993 and Fedora since 2003. I’ll concede that there are times when things go sideways when not using the OS (Windows) that the hardware was originally designed for. In my case, I do my research before I buy any kind of computer/system to ensure that I have something that will give me the most likely combination to work with the OS I intend to deploy on it. AND when I inevitably run into a thorn, like the one you are currently experiencing, I come here first and see if someone has found a fix. So, would you like some assistance ? :slight_smile:

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Is the security of a flatpak with full access to hardware worse than an rpm with full access to the hardware?

Well in this case the purpose is to get hardware companies to make their hardware-managing apps work on Linux. I don’t see how that purpose is being defeated.

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If there’s one good thing about Linux, it’s the community. We’re all here, holding it together with duck tape and bubble gum.

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Ok, since you wanted to know, let’s do it.

ping mit.edu

output: ping: mit.edu: Temporary failure in name resolution

ping 23.5.146.146

output: ping: connect: Network is unreachable

traceroute 23.5.146.146

output: traceroute to 23.5.146.146 (23.5.146.146), 30 hops max, 60 byte packets
connect: Network is unreachable

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First you need to figure out what exactly happened to your internet, and then direct the blame towards that. If it’s something distro-side (like bad NetworkManager conf), then it’s distro Q/A.

If it’s the kernel, then where at specifically; the network driver, or something related to like the PCI system not passing a power state? The kernel itself is one thing, but if you’re on Realtek network hardware for example, they have well-known issues on Linux and simply shouldn’t be entertained if you’re running into a driver-specific issue.

Also, I don’t think Linux was ever more reliable than Windows for me :sunglasses: but I’m mainly not using it now because Windows 11 wants to force Defender real-time scanning and I don’t like that as a future concept (destroys NVMe perf). 10’s fine but I’m not trying to rely on that like some people with 7 still :stuck_out_tongue:

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It would mostly mean that when using flatpaks only as a distribution tool, like a zip or tar.gz, there would be no benefit in using flatpak in the first place. That is why it defeats the purpose. The step of invoking an extra chroot in the process of loading kernel modules would only introduce extra latency and not really solve anything.

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It would seem you have not network interfaces working at all.
We can check that, what is the output if ip address?

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Goodness grief, now it’s not even coming back on after sleep mode. Had to force shutdown.

I should give some more context on my PC.
Motherboard: Gigabyte 870 Arous Elite Wifi7
PSU: Corsair RM750x
CPU: Ryzen 5 7600X
GPU: Radeon 5500 XT
RAM: 2x Corsair 16GB 4800MT/s
SSD’s:

M2A_CPU = Windows 10 OS - Samsung 980 pro 500GB

M2D_SB = For Windows 10 (Documents, Music, ect) - Kingston 512GB
PCIEX4 = Fedora 41 - WDC 250GB on a Silverstone ECM23 Expansion Card

ip address
output:
1: lo <LOOPBACK,UP,LOWER_UP> mtu 65536 qdisc noqueue state UNKOWN group default qlen 1000

link/loopback 00:00:00:00:00:00 brd 00:00:00:00:00:00:00
inet 127.0.01/8 scope host lo
valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever
inet6 ::1/128 scope host noprefixroute
valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever

2: wlp10s0: <BROADCAUST,MULTICAST> mtu 1500 qdisc noop state DOWN group default qlen 1000
link/ether 9e:a3:34:5a:29:aa brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff permaddr 44:fa:66:ae:5b:c1

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You have a WiFi interface but do not seem to have configure it “state DOWN”.

Try using your desktops WiFi network setup to get the Wifi connected to your network.