Old Timer just installed Fedora 42 - my thoughts

Ask Fedora
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My introduction to GNU/Linux was MKLinux DR3 which basically was a Red Hat 5.1 (late 90s) port to PowerPC running an experimental Mach Mikrokernel.

Previously I dual-boot LFS (RPM bootstrapped) and CentOS 7. Triple boot as I keep two LFS installs (current plus previous I built current from) but they share a /boot and grub2 so…

I used CentOS 7 when I needed to use an app I haven’t yet built for LFS (usually because of dependencies) and not too worried about updates as I don’t have open ports, am behind router firewall, and keep FireFox up to date from Mozilla binaries.

I tried Fedora 41 Live but it was broken, the menu bar and dock wouldn’t start, so I didn’t install it. But TeXLive 2025 doesn’t work with the glibc in CentOS 7 and TeXLive 2024 had some bugs (with workarounds) that are fixed in 2025, so I really needed something newer.

What I like about Fedora 42 (after installing MATE), wayland works well enough without me needing to install the nVidia kernel module, audio actually sounds better, modern Python environment.

What annoyed me - the installer seems like it was Person A telling me how I was going to configure my system. Very few choices.

I prefer ext4 for the filesystem. Why? Because if I ever need to recover a disk, there are ext4 drivers available for just about every operating system under the sun. I’m sure btrfs is a fine filesystem, as was xfs, but so is ext4.

Apparently there is a way to choose ext4 from workstation installer but it’s so hidden that me and many other people who actually want ext4 couldn’t find it.

On the topic of filesystems, I would have liked to be able increase the size of /boot to 2 GB but the installer picked the size. I’m already at 52% used, and I just installed early AM this morning! Doesn’t give much room for building custom kernels to experiment. If there was a way to increase the size, then like the filesystem, it was hidden. As I use an external platter drive for /home there is GOBS of space on / that I’ll never ever ever use. Why couldn’t use 2GB of my boot/OS SSD for /boot?

After installing, I was able to comment out the installer btrfs /home in /etc/fstab and mount my existing /home there, but my root partition is still btrfs and I really wanted ext4.

Another nitpick, I was hoping to be able to choose what gets installed from the start. I used a Live ISO because I wanted to make sure Fedora 42 worked but I expected the network installer to be a boot option from the installer ISO. It wasn’t.

AisleRiot solitaire no longer has my favorite deck as a choice (Dondorf I think it was called), I’ll have to see if I can patch it back in to the current AisleRiot, but AisleRiot has deck choice overload—too many decks (options) to choose from, while the workstation installer has gone the other route and has way too few options.

Perhaps the network installer that lets you install everything and has more installation choices should be a grub boot option on the workstation live installer.

Other than the filesystem (and solitaire deck…) I have it the way I like it now, so far I’m happy with it, but the installer I think needs to be designed for real people, not idiots.

Google now likes to decide it knows what I want to search for better than I do, I hate to see the Fedora installer taking that same route.

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At least that problem should be fixed fairly soon:

For the rest of the problems, I wouldn’t hold my breath. It used to be possible to switch to a virtual terminal while the installer is running and use a command line partitioning tool to configure the partitions the way you like. Then you could switch back to the GUI and refresh the disk layout in the installer and tell it to use the existing partitions. I’m not sure if that is still possible, but I think it should be. I haven’t done a (normal) fresh installation in a very long time.

Oh, and welcome to Fedora. :slightly_smiling_face:

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MATE is using wayland? I thought their wayland session was still experimental.

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The installer should target youngsters thinking about moving away from Windows. Linux is a community project, so there are community benefits from experienced users running a default configuration so they can reproduce issues. “Real people” can use the network installer and chose what to add for their personal use-case.

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I just span up F42 Workstation in a VM to go through the installer, so bare with me. The installer for F42 Workstation is the new anaconda-WebUI installer. The previous incarnation was GTK based. anaconda-WebUI is the intended replacement for anaconda-GTK and is obviously, by it’s name, web based and rendered using firefox. It’s done along the same lines as the cockpit interface.

It is in it’s infancy and rudimentary. If you want something more advanced, you’re going to have to use a spin (KDE, MATE, Cinnamon) or the everything and server isos that still use the older (and more advanced) anaconda-GTK installer.

Currently not with the anaconda-WebUI installer I’m looking at. It really is a “you’re going to install it like we tell you” with absolutely zero options.

I just span up F43 Workstation beta to check it out and the anaconda-WebUI isn’t any more advanced. Previously on earlier live workstation isos using anaconda-GTK, you simply had to select advanced under the partitioning section to be directed towards the blivet-gui tool which allowed much more intricate partitioning options.

It might be worth following the roadmap / development / issues and bug tracker of the anaconda-WebUI installer and requesting more advanced features. Current upstream is located here on GitHub.

You need the everything iso and old anaconda-GTK for that. Again, this is something that could be implemented in anaconda-WebUI, but it entirely depends on development pace and stability. It’s likely we won’t see something such as detailed / advanced package selection / dependency resolution in anaconda-WebUI for quite a while.

That’s a GNOME issue and I don’t think aisleriot has been updated in years. And I mean yeeeeears. A GTK4 port issue exists in the GNOME gitlab instance from 2022 and the last comment from 5 months ago is talking about a complete re-write. You can see the last commenter links to his own complete re-write project, but it is very much in it’s infancy.

Currently you can use anaconda in the everything and server iso images, or (if memory serves me correctly) there is an option (under troubleshooting on those isos) to use a text mode installer and do all partitioning manually on the command line with those isos.

I’ve attempted text mode previously and found that it is nowhere near as good as or intuitive as the Debian text installer. It is effectively a text version of the anaconda-GTK gui and yet despite how easy I find it to use that, the text version I just can’t seem to get along with.

When it comes to the general purpose isos on the main website, they should be idiot proof. We don’t want to scare new people off by gatekeeping the simple act of installing Linux. There are any number of distributions that gained a reputation for making it unnecessarily difficult for new users to install them.

Judging by what you’ve already got installed (two LFS systems) you are quite obviously an advanced user so I don’t know why you’d be installing with the live isos in the first place. The only time I use the live isos is when a new release drops, which I run in a VM to check out what’s new.

Otherwise it’s a network install image all day every day for me.

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FYI, the desktop spins are switching to the Anaconda WebUI as well.

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Wayland works in Gnome, MATE (and I believe XFCE) though are headed there though and have some wayland support, so wayland working well with open source nvidia driver is important.

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Targeting youngsters moving away from windows (or macOS) just means it needs safe defaults, not that it needs to remove ability to customize the install.

I was a youngster when I first installed Linux, back in the late 90s, and I used the defaults. Then as I learned I started tweaking as I did more installs. Taking away the ability to tweak the initial install isn’t good.

I don’t know where this philosophy that its beneficial to make installers without options is somehow good comes from, but its not reality.

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I know about experimental wayfire-based session, but didn’t knew it’s actually shipped by some distros.

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I think they should have network installer be a boot option on the live installs. If someone downloads a live install to test it, why then be forced to download a separate installer to do a proper network install after testing?

It wouldn’t make the iso that much bigger, and modern cheap thumb drives are much much much larger than the iso so it’s not like it would make it more expensive to put the iso on a thumb drive either.

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I agree. However, with the transition to WebUI I don’t think we’ll be seeing advanced options for a while yet. An all-in-one iso that allows simple or advanced (including network) installation would be great.

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Let’s not forget that the new Anaconda WebUI is at its first iteration on Workstation 42. There was real interest from the new installer’s developers here on the forums, where they’ve asked for and gathered feedback. One of the complaints was the fact that the advanced partitioning tool was non-intuitively hidden behind the ellipsis menu. I expect UX optimizations in future versions of the WebUI installer.

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What I don’t understand is how an installer can be replaced with one that has zero options to adjust the filesystem layout. At least give people the chance to choose the installer during bootup or when an install is invoked.

If I were new to Fedora and came across such an installer, I’d drop Fedora right then and there.

P.S.: I don’t need help to install Fedora, and I know that I can use the server image or netinstall to get a proper installer. The problem is that people who are new to Fedora don’t.

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The option to adjust the file-system layout is there in the new installer as well, it’s just not obvious enough how to access it, being hidden behind a (not so obvious ellipsis) menu.

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Thanks for the info. I still would suggest to make this another option under How would you like to install?

While people coming from Windows might not be very familiar with disk layouts and filesystems, Linux/Unix/*BSD users are very much aware of at least the basics. I would even say most know even advanced topics in that area.

The defaults don’t have to change. But the option to manually create a layout should at least be shown to the user in the install workflow.

If I were to use that installer as a Linux user (without knowing that this obscure menu holds the key to a manual layout), I’d be quite annoyed. So much that I’d probably install another distro.I’d be even more annoyed finding out later that there actually was a “hidden“ option to manually create a layout. I’d feel angry and patronized.

I’m just trying to say that this is not very user friendly. Maybe baby friendly. But babies ususally don’t install an OS.

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We need more Linux babies :slight_smile:
I’ve got two :smiley:

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Please remember that it’s still a new iteration of WebUI installer. It’s not set in stone. And all in all, I still think it’s a step-up over previous GTK installer.

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That’s fine. I am not talking about myself here. If push comes to shove, I don’t even need an installer…

I am rather concerned that people who try installing Fedora will be disappointed.

Don’t forget, the installer is the first thing they’ll see. It’s fine that it is still in development. But a message that clicking the ellipsis menu will allow you to manually create a disk layout and pick your filesystems is not too much to ask for. These 3 dots are easily overlooked.

It’s not that new images are created every day. People will have to wait for f43. And what if the installer hasn’t been improved by then? They have to wait for f44? Just saying, from a design perspective the new installer has been a mistake.

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No it wasn’t. The only problem I see you mention is that accessing manual partitioning is unintuitive. That’s relatively easy to fix, unlike the previous installer…

GTK Anaconda’s partitioning layout was absolutely unintuitive and purely painful to use. Compared to this, new one is definitely better.

And in the past it was GTK installer, which was infamous for being bad.

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That is a horrible decision. I would consider myself a reasonably advanced user and when I loaded up the WebUI installer in the VM I couldn’t see where to edit the partitions. I even clicked on that button and quickly scanning the menu “Launch Storage Editor” did not even register with me. I obviously must have succeeded in registering 2 out of 3 of the items being “About” and “Report Issue” (as my brain read the items shortest to longest first) and simply disregarded the third which was the one I wanted.

I mean who the hell thinks an out of the way menu containing “About” and “Report issue” is going to contain one of the most fundamental parts of an installer… the partitioner. It’s like sticking the settings menu under the “Help” menu item in a Window. I literally just opened Dolphin and clicked on the help menu to see what’s under there and “About” and “Report bug” are listed there. What isn’t listed there is “fundamental settings for configuring this application” as that’s under “Settings” and “Configure dolphin”.

Is this a design decision they have taken from newer Windows installers or something? I haven’t installed Windows since XP, so I don’t know what the subsequent installers for that look like. But I can’t imagine why anyone would think putting one of the most important parts of an installer under a menu like that would be a good idea, unless they wanted to steam roll users into installing Fedora one way and one way only and if you don’t install it the way they want and later have an issue they can say “Works on my machine, Not a bug, won’t fix”.

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