Why would anyone try to use 470xx with wayland? it only provides egl-streams support.
Fedora Xwayland package is built without egl-streams and f42 mutter is also built without egl-streams.
This means the whole gnome wayland session uses the LLVM driver instead of 470xx
I donât, but OP wants to use X, and I was referring to 470.xx that always uses X, not Wayland
~ ⯠rpm -q xorg-x11-server-Xorg xorg-x11-xinit 14:16:39
xorg-x11-server-Xorg-21.1.16-1.fc42.x86_64
xorg-x11-xinit-1.4.3-2.fc42.x86_64
Yeah.
since the commodor 64 that i used to dev, my opinion is verify different than yours. I feel the idea to enforce users to be a kind of fanatism for any reason. But the reality the users experiment is that many softwares still need X11 to run, and also the very last one (look at Warp AI for exemple). And not only the problem about snapshot that is a nightmare for safety concern with Wayland, there is other concern than just an idea (the one you share) about what safety has to be. The main subject there is âsafetyâ against âfreedomâ. And this subject will stand as long as some software request X11 or Wayland and no alternative for each.
I think that the futur is for Wayland (i am not pro or anti what ever⌠this is a binary mindestâs thinking to be dangerous and to much simple to pretend to be intelligent in the same time), but as long as not all the existing software that offer something nice doesnât exist on Wayland, all the discution to enforce people to not use X11 is a deny of the living reality.
There is all the time change on UI design for any reason that decrease the stability (sure, because of safety or modern think we have to trust about⌠NEW is a big dream) and less freedom at the end. I think it is difficult to me to read old experimented people that still want to reduce freedom for any reason (religious, ideological, safety concern or what ever, there is ALWAYS a âgoodâ reason to be sure about something and enforce and then push out people).
I still hope we can try better to be smart with some rules about⌠just respect of freedom concern. And much more in the Unix / Linux communities.
For the argument about âold technologyâ against ânew concept to be saferâ, the reality of COBOL in the most important safety concern all over the world still show that your idea is a kind of limited reality. There is the credibility of experience and stability that is the real deal about safety. So yes, it will have Wayland or something better to be the major next step (we can trust also something way better than wayland will exist at some time to come⌠and then what ?) but as long as it can not run all that people have to use with, there is no reasonable argument to lock out people by enforce them to use Wayland only.
Well now my problem is: may i still have to go ahead with Fedora if they decide what we have to live with ? Is it possible to run X11 and Wayland separately and freely without to have to fight against an ideological kind of psychological war that lock people out and consume a lot of opur time ?
Now i start to install XOrg server, SDDM, Awesome WM to run such things to dev, but i am in trouble and loose time because of a political mindest of this company i trusted for mnany years (as i do with other). Install amdgpu xord driver seems to kill the Wayland use of GPU for specific things (i never asked to use it⌠so it should have a conflict somewhere now) because some application doesnât start now (and i just installed thing without to config anythingâŚ). What the hell !
See, I must re-instate that X11, besides being old, is unmaintained, abandoned.
Now please donât tell me there is somebody working on a fork to keep it alive. Even if it was doable, it is just a waste of time because soon or later X11 will be dropped by all the things that matter.
About âfreedomâ I donât know what you are saying. I give you an example. You move from a Windows version to the next, you must buy a new plotter (that is expensive) because there arenât drivers or you must keep it working via a stand alone workstation you wonât update or some kind of emulation. You move from a âlinuxâ kernel to another and your USB wifi dongle doesnât work any more for the very same reason. If/when nobody is interested in fixing old software or patching the new one, you are on your own. It is a smaller issue only because you arenât using any plotter with âlinuxâ.
Yes, in theory you can code a driver yourself, you can patch the kernel you can even write the whole Operating System like Redox. It is the same âfreedomâ you have with Windows. You canât patch it but you can move to another OS.
I write it again, waste of time.
Speaking of Fedora, it depends on your reasons and needs.
I came to Fedora looking for something that was as polished as possibile for a Linux desktop. Fedora Workstation is possibly the best Gnome desktop.
If I wanted something different, like a XFCE desktop, I would have opted for Debian because it makes more sense for âlegacyâ or âslow movingâ stuff.
I guess Fedora drops âlegacyâ software much earlier than Debian.
I found this Debian bug report talking about patching the legacy driver for 6.15 kernels.
idk maybe its helpful for the rpmfusion guys, so iâm posting the link here
What do you mean by âmaintainedâ? Does they update project for security concern ? yes or not ?
I think you can understand the subject about freedom but only if you want to try, i can not force you to try, for sure.
Why are you talking about Windows ? Microsoft is a company with no open source code and a commercial culture vocation (and i have no problem with that, but i understand the difference of conteext⌠do you ?). Your exemple will not help you to get the point. Microsoft doesnât care about such a subject and obsolescence is something they can manage too (as Apple or Epson or HP do perfectly as a commercial and abusive technic). But, again, we are not talking about a Microsoft tech in a company and there is no chief there, but some opinions of end users (sorry if not everybody share yours, but i just tell you that is is a fact you can look as it is).
By the time, as i told you, at work on sea with oil and gas company, there is still Windows-95 running on some computer because of the driver locked with that old version to run with tool and for some licences reasons. That is all that it is when you are locked with the reality. I gave you this exemple because as long as there is many application that does not run on Wayland (and some that will never do), it is a better idea to hold both technologies (even if Xorg is just maintained for safety update only). How can you miss this crucial point ? you can not miss it honestly, it is just as it is: a fact.
And for my point of view, i have no psychological problem to see running an old technology as long as it works and do some job a new one can not do (like screenshot and some other stuff about communication). I do not defend a technology, but usability first. I have a life in this real world, not in a politic idea that i can have of this world as it should be⌠i just donât care about that, for me, it is like fanatism.
The waste of time is to imagine a world who still does not exist and force people with only one thing that does not deserve all task people are using.
Now i arrived to switch back on Xorg and this mentality to enforce and to be restrictive convince me to use more this old Xorg techno. Even if it is far not perfect and old, it still can do things that Wayland can not (and can not just because of his restrictive concerned pattern).
âas polished as possibleâ is a mantra concept that is not the same depend of your target and idea of the world. You should try to look at the reality and needs of other, there is not only yours.
âLEGACYâ is a fency word to enforce a Trojan horse for naive users. Who define what is âLegacyâ ? this is a big subject⌠I trust that Legacy or any other can have a life too, but not only.
Or⌠at least, a solution can be to bet on that: Fedora can trash Xorg and loose many users.
Actually, i am very happy to use back Xmonad desktop and Awesome⌠so then to trash Wayland. I did try wayland and i see that the experience is way more restrictive at the end time and not realy a garanty to be safety. So⌠bye bye Wayland. And if Fedora own Wayland only (why not ?), then bye bye Fedora.
To switch from restrictive Wayland out of fanatic Fedoraâs team, you can install @base-x group package and a Xorg compatible DM as sddm-x11.
Then you have to create or Xorg conf file to manage accordingly your devices that X11 has to care about (same since ever).
Finaly, care about other conflicting possible drivers from other repos that are not from Fedora and that can occur around (but you will get the point from boot if Xorg crash and read his log file from tty console to target the driver that does not pass).
And voilĂ , you will find a functional universe of X11 (not necessarily pretty and fashionable, but at least functional).
X11Libre is actively maintained and is getting new features to address the pain points that Wayland was supposed to fix / does fix. Iâm an active tester and Iâm watching the commits. Not accounting for the average quality of development in question which is still undetermined, to say X11 is abandoned is very obviously lie.
Where are we with OPâs original question?
@secrethr01 Can you please run startx from the TTY? Do you get a default root window? (the dotted âdogboneâ pattern and a cross cursor)
What clues do you find in the journal for sddm?
journalctl -u sddm.service
What is in /etc/X11/Xorg.0.log? (it may also be in /var/log/, i forget)
1 Like
In my understanding there were three options.
Keep working on X.
Re-writing X from scratch.
Opt for something else, which at the end is Wayland.
Besides, like wrote elsewhere, Wayland means âpros and cons of each single compositorâ because there isnât any single Wayland, I guess nobody wanted to follow the first two ways, because updating X would be painful and because re-writing it would be a lot of work, possibly for the wrong reasons.
âlinuxâ universe is rich of forks. Most donât make much sense after a while because of lack of interest and then lack of resources. Once the Wayland avalanche got rolling, keeping X around is just about delaying the inevitable.
Anyway, Wayland is not enforced on anybody, I mean, there are conservative distributions that donât plan to get rid of X anytime soon. It canât be Fedora.
I think that you do not get the point about what can do Wayland and what it will never be able to do.
Your presentation deny this fact and show Wayland to be something like ânew and betterâ.
It is not the real situation: it is not new, and it is not better.
There is nothing about âconservativeâ to just be able to do something that the other one can not by design reason.
Sadely, your rhetoric consist to tranform technical concern to politic concern, then to paint a situation as your mind filters apply it the way you imagine it has to be.
There is no good reason to practice this way.
Computer sciencie is not a religion and it is not a politic subject.
And also, please notice kindly that rhetoric technics are not technical argumentation.
But maybe you can stop computer and start politic, you will be in your toes.
See, nothing stops you to start coding X11 and keep it alive.
Nothing stops you to talk to all the developers and convince them to keep their software X11 compatible.
Nothing stops you to talk to all the distribution steering committees and convince them to keep providing X11 packages.
You donât have to convice me, I am nobody, just an user.
I am an user who had to move on countless times already so I am quite good at it.
1 Like
If we arenât going to help the OP of the thread then I would advise the nearest administrator close it because this discussion is going nowhere.
1 Like