Goals for Fedora Silverblue 30


#21

It’s still there on disk (in /sysroot/ostree/repo), but that’s it. My view on this is that disk space is relatively cheap, and always being able to reset to the “base image/tree” without e.g. needing networking is a feature. Is your concern disk space or something else?


#22

Actually both disk space and Network. I don’t want updates of those packages which I don’t use. Btw is it possible to ship Firefox browser as a flatpak app instead of including it on the base ostree image? IMO, user-space packages/applications should be flatpaks only. So this idea can be set as a goal for Fedora silverblue 30 as Fedora has already started implementing their own flatpak repository.


#23

This is one of the trade-offs made when composing an ostree for general consumption. The choices made about what packages go into the compose are never going to satisfy everyone, so you need to be willing to accept some additional “bloat”. If you are really passionate about excluding packages from your system, your best bet is to make custom compose that you maintain yourself.

I believe that is a goal that we have to reach for. With the introduction of the official Fedora Flatpak repo and the supporting documentation, I believe we should start to see more userspace apps as Flatpaks.

There’s an unofficial Firefox Flatpak repo, but I have personally not used it - https://firefox-flatpak.mojefedora.cz/

This is a noble goal, but kind of circles back to the “one size fits all” problem when you are creating an ostree compose. For example, in another thread, we heard complaints about some of the default GNOME apps that were removed from the base package set and caused frustrations. While you might be fine with not having all the typical GNOME apps on your host after an upgrade/install, some users will expect to have them pre-installed. And since we aren’t pre-installing Flatpaks right now, we have to include some of those userspace apps as part of the base compose.

I think the best thing to do for your goals is to start creating Flatpaks for the packages you use and get them into a repo where all the users can consume them/


#24

I do use it (not on Silverblue though), but I can say it’s great! Everything you want basically works flawless.
Unfortunately it’s not yet isolated so much (it has access to “home” AFAIK)
And big issues with flatpak are still how applications may communicate/work together, see e.g. KeePassXC and Firefox or even Firefox and U2F secrity keys.
Also I generally get this issue in Atom e.g. when trying to use it as a flatpak. Running any external build tool is likely impossible or even such a small binary as shellcheck.

I don’t know how you consider to solve this in Fedora Silverblue…


#25

Atom workaround: add the permission --talk-name=org.freedesktop.Flatpak and run flatpak-spawn --host a-command to run it on the host.


#26

Yeah, also read that here, but I still have to think through what the security implications of that are? I mean, it likely weakens the sandbox.
(Also I have no idea how to manually add a permission to a flatpak installed from flathub.)


#27

A bit, but this is also an FOSS editor & it’s more a practicality issue.

sudo flatpak override my.app.id --talk-name=org.freedesktop.Flatpak

#28

It would be cool if the core OSTrees and Fedora packages could be better in sync. At least once a week, I can’t upgrade the OSTree because of some packages otherwise getting replaced in core. Usually it’s blocked by dnf, just now git was the cause.

Sometimes it’s even worse, when rpm-ostree lists a conflict of some library without giving me the information which packages are pulling them in. For being able to upgrade I then have to find the according package (or even worse: packages) by un-layering random packages and rebooting several times.

// And at least the installation of new packages shouldn’t require a reboot. With just additions and no modifications to other parts of the system, I think a new OSTree image could be build and switched to in the background, maybe?


#29

rpm-ostree ex livefs does this, but it’s still experimental and may end up leaving your deployment set in a screwed-up state (easy to fix though).


#30

Thanks for all the explainations and Links :slight_smile: . This holidays I will try to create few flatpaks of my own. However I have to wait for the Fedora flatpak repository to get filled up a little bit more.
Silverblue is indeed fun. Especially easy rollbacks with fedora-toolbox and podman to be in race with normal Fedora :wink:


#31

It’d also be nice it solve printer setup. We still rely on installing additional drivers/firmware which simply doesn’t work on Silverblue (without using the rpm overlay). I just tried to set up an HP printer and failed.


#32

HPLIP should already be set up. I print to an HP printer, and it works out of the box. That being said, I did have to perform a firmware upgrade on the printer first.

What model do you have? Was exactly didn’t work?


#33

Regarding the Fedora Flatpaks, there’s unfortunately still this weird bug in GS that makes them somewhat collide with the Flathub ones. I tried debugging it, but didn’t have much luck.


#34

I started using Silverblue when F29 was available. I’m using it on my workstation for everyday work and I’m really happy with it.
I really like what you are trying to achieve with fedora-toolbox. At least for me it will mean that I don’t need to layer that much packages.
I still have somewhat mixed feelings about gnome-software. It’s sometimes working and sometimes not. Sometimes I just hit refresh button and after few minutes I must kill it, because I don’t know if it is actually doing something and rather update system using rpm-ostree and flatpak commands.
I’m not sure why gnome-software is so much buggy, when it is core part of the system if you want to use system without terminal.

I hope someday I could recommend Silverblue to someone who doesn’t have any deeper knowledge about Linux as a system for everyday use. Silverblue - thanks to atomic updates and stability is the best candidate for this.

Keep up the good work.


#35

I’ve been following Fedora Silverblue news for a while now (at least where I can find it - news seems to be quite hard to find!), and I’m very interested in it. I did all my distro hopping years ago and fell in love with Arch Linux, so that’s what I’m running now. Fedora Silverblue is the first thing to tempt me away.

I’d love to use Fedora Silverblue, but I’ve been waiting for it to mature some more first, as when I tried it in a VM it didn’t seem to be quite there yet. Hardly any applications were installed by default, and no Flatpak repositories were even set up so it was impossible to install new software out of the box without manually adding more. I think Fedora Silverblue 30 might be enough for me to switch, if these goals can be met!

Basically, the things that I want to see (as an end user) are:

  1. The full GNOME suite, as well as other usual applications, installed out of the box. These should be installed as Flatpaks, not anything else. So things like Firefox, Gedit, GNOME Files, GNOME Calculator, etc. I want to see as pre-installed Flatpaks.

  2. A Flatpak repository should be set up out of the box, so that new software can be immediately installed via GNOME Software.

  3. Something more user friendly for setting up “pet containers”, or otherwise some more beginner friendly guides or documentation explaining this. I’ve been reading a lot, and I still don’t really understand how to jump in and do it. Nobody seems to explain this clearly. It all seems to be written for a target audience of people that work with Docker and assumes pre-existing knowledge that I don’t have.

I also have a question regarding the Fedora Flatpaks: will they use sandboxing? As an end user, I’d expect and prefer that they include sandboxing - that’s one of the major benefits of Flatpaks to me. But since it sounds like you’re automatically generating Fedora Flatpaks from your regular packages, I don’t see how the sandbox permissions would get configured. It would surely require somebody to go through and do it all manually. What’s the plan here?


#36

I hope someday I could recommend Silverblue to someone who doesn’t have any
deeper knowledge about Linux as a system for everyday use.

That day is today. You do not have to have any Linux-specific experience to
use Silverblue. However, you may need some shell experience if you need to do
certain things. That would be either experience with the GNU operating system
(bash and coreutils) or with your shell of choice and Fedora/Silverblue
utilities. Luckily, you almost never need to change anything with Linux, the
kernel.


#37

You cannot recommend a system that is not installable by the average joe. :slight_smile:

I would wish to install FSB30 along my other distros, but it is not possible because the anaconda :snake: :unamused: got its issues with me. Or with my GPT bios_grub partition booting into standard-partitions without lvm. Or with my non-existent /boot. I dont know.
I have no problems with F29 and F30.


#38

AFAIK they’ve been removing apps from the base image, but I’m not sure how that would affect Flatpaks. TBH due to the nature of Flatpaks, I really don’t see that much use in including them…

Agreed, I didn’t even realize it wasn’t already like this.[quote=“ddde9ddf6f, post:35, topic:773”]
Something more user friendly for setting up “pet containers”, or otherwise some more beginner friendly guides or documentation explaining this. I’ve been reading a lot , and I still don’t really understand how to jump in and do it. Nobody seems to explain this clearly. It all seems to be written for a target audience of people that work with Docker and assumes pre-existing knowledge that I don’t have
[/quote]
At the moment, the ultimate beginner advice is basically “install fedora-toolbox”. It automatically sets up a pet container with a normal Fedora inside.

FWIW I was also an Arch user who switched over. The workflows screwed with my head for a few weeks, but once you get the hang of everything, it’s pretty great. I particularly like not having to worry about upgrades breaking my system anymore :sweat_smile:


#39

Yes it is, and I am one who often refrains to that line as it is the simplest route to the answers being sought.

This too, would seem to be ones mantra when embarking on using Sliverblue exclusively as your DE, read often and about ->Conatiners, Flatpaks, rpm-ostree, ostree, extensions, runtimes…
On a related vein, I recently messed with the flatpak manifest of jetbrains IDEA CE that is on flathub. Basically I learned to use ‘flatpak remote-ls flathub’ to get a listing of everything that repo has to offer, apps, runtimes, extensions.


#40

Agreed,

Silverblue is stable and is really not much different from the Workstation release, once the flathub repo is set up Gnome Software presents a growing list of applications to install.